Тезата се вижда от самолет и е формулирана специално в тази тема поне на две места, който може да чете я прочете вече.
А ти продължавай да търсиш Безмер у славяните и плява в моите постинги. Ако намериш поне едно споменаване на БЕЗМЕР и МАЛАМЕР в славянски и извънбългарски контекст, си признавам, че пиша глупости, а ти си учения сред нас. Впрочем за учен си доста голословен и ми е много трудно да те оборвам, защото нищо не казваш. Ето на, от сума време чакам да видя нещо за тюрките или за хуните от тебе, а то - нищо. Едно гробче поне, едно комплексче, изворче някое - но не! Само някакви търсения у славяните, само някакви нервни тикове. Така нормален форумен диалог не се прави...
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Ами формулирай си теза, приложи си съотносимите доказателства и дори да не е перфектна, надали някои ще каже нещо против. Но досега нищо подобно не виждам. какво ме интересуват ирански легенди и техните компилации ? Какво общо имат с темата ?
А обиди не виждам никъде. Както и железни аргументи...Leave a comment:
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Много са ти сериозни аргументите, несъмнено отвъд възможността да се коментират, какво ли ще стане, ако взема да цитирам от едни поредици на РАН за славяно-иранските контакти, не ми се мисли... Какво ли да очакваме от лица, които наричат "плява" труда на скромните съфорумци и които на железни факти противопоставят обиди? Това за етруски - ето руские иди на го обясниш на Кызласов и Прицак...Leave a comment:
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Хахаха. “High is Mithra”. Прабългарите-митраисти, релефа-сасанидски, сигурно и клибанарии има вече, плодят се... Е, не, автохонистите имат по-свестни теории от това. Жалко, просто жалко...One of his predecessors bore the name Bezmer, possibly from Iranian Burz-Mihr (“High is Mithra”). Such names underline the cultural contacts between the proto-Bulgars and the Iranian world, especially with the Alans and Sarmatians of the northern Caucasus and south Russia. The figure of the Madara horseman, carved on a high cliff near Pliska by one of Asparukh’s successors, recalls the use of equestrian rock reliefs in Sasanian Iran.
А с останалото питам, какво се опитваш да докажеш ? Этруски - это руские! Имало -мир у иранците... И кво от това ? Славяните го вързприели от тях ли ? Германците може би, също... Брех, тия перси, да им се неначудиш. Вярно си е плява, ама се чудя кого ще изненадаш с нея ? Какво общо има с темата ?Leave a comment:
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О, мейн гот?!
AYĀDGĀR Ī WUZURGMIHR, a popular-religious andarz composition in Pahlavi, attributed to one of the best-known sages of the Sasanian period, Wuzurgmihr (Bozorgmehr) ī Buxtagān, who was active at the court of Ḵosrow I Anōšīravān (531-79 A.D.). Nothing in the work itself is at variance with such a dating, and the unity of the composition points to a single author.
The work is preserved in what seems to be its original Pahlavi form (ed. J. M. Jamasp-Asana, Pahlavi Texts, Bombay, 1897-1913, pp. 85-101), as well as in an Arabic version of a fairly early period, which reflects quite closely the Pahlavi original (in Meskawayh’s [Meskūya] Jāvīdān ḵerad, cf. Abū ʿAlī Aḥmad b. Moḥammad Meskawayh, al-Ḥekma al-ḵāleda, ed. ʿA. Badawī, Cairo, 1952, pp. 29-41). The substance of the composition occurs also in verse form in Ferdowsī’s, Šāh-nāma (ed. Borūḵīm, VIII, pp. 2448ff.). Several other later elaborations and versifications are found both in Arabic and in Persian; most of them are unpublished. Many short quotations from the work are found scattered throughout the Arabic and Persian adab (q.v.) works, mostly deriving, as it seems, from the version known through Meskawayh but some are culled from other redactions. One of the more interesting independent versions of the work in Arabic was published from a manuscript by Louis Cheikho under the title Ḥekam Bozorjmehr (see Machriq 6, 1903, pp. 203-07, 250-54). Meskawayh’s book itself contains other collections of sayings attributed to Wuzurgmihr, and several further such collections are known from other Arabic sources (e.g., Pseudo-Aṣmāʿī, Nehāyat al-ʿarab, Ms. British Museum Add. 23.298, fol. 193bff.), but their literary relationship to this composition is not easy to establish. Short anecdotes and sayings, as well as short collections of sayings attributed to Wuzurgmihr are scattered in the Arabic and Persian adab works (Masʿūdī’s Morūj, Ṯaʿālebī’s Ḡorar, etc.) as well as in medieval works in Ethiopian (Maṣḥafa falāsefa ṭabībān, cf. F. Altheim, Geschichte der Hunnen, Berlin, 1963, V, pp. 215f.), Syriac (e.g. Bar Hebraeus, The Laughable Stories, ed. E. A. W. Budge, London, 1897, p. 17), and other languages.
Ех, тази плява, какви мощни корени е пуснала и на Запад, и на Изток - само сгушени на Балканите последните тюрко-хуни скърцат със зъби и плющят по форумите...Leave a comment:
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И още плява - дас ист фантастиш?!
The doctrine of sacral kingship dictated that the ruling family be of royal blood and descent, a continuation of earlier beliefs of royal legitimacy in which there was a chain of dynasties transferring kingship from one family to another (DKM 2921.17/. Since there was no clear line of royal descent from earlier rulers to the Sasanid family, these relations were invented and descent was claimed from the last Achaemenian monarch Darius III Codomannus (Phl: Daray/. This claim of royal ancestry was introduced into the founder legend of Emperor Ardeshir I which appears to have been elaborated by the priesthood and wandering minstrels /KAP 2.4-10, 15.1-8/. A claimant to the throne had to be a direct member of the royal family, a doctrine placed by Tha'alibi in the words of Gurdoya, the sister and wife of the Persian general Bahrain Chobin who rebelled against Xusro II (Tha'alibi 683/.24 A similar indictment of rebellion against the monarchy is voiced by the elder son of Shahrburaz, a rebellious general under An dashir III /Tha'alibi 733-34/. Islamic literature also indicates that Iranian royal blood was sacred and that the personal sanctity of Sasanian kings ought not to be violated. Burzmihr, whose father Sukhra had been slain by Emperor Kuwadh I, was prevented by his belief in the sanctity of royal blood from slaying Emperor Kuwadh when the latter was deposed and placed under Burzmihr's authority /Tha'alibi 509/. Hamza al-Isfahani mentions that to his day the people of Marw referred to the descendants of Mahoe, the governor of Marw who betrayed the last Sasanian monarch Emperor Yazdegerd III, and hence caused the king's death, as khuda-kushan "king-killers" (Isfahani 63). Ibn Batriq also mentions the sanctity of the royal blood of Sasanian rulers (Batriq 176/. It appears that the Sasanian monarch was usually inaccessible to visitors and separated from their gaze. He sat on the throne with a veiled face or behind a curtain,25 perhaps following Achaemenian court practice (Xenophon Agesilaus 9.12; Herakleides 4.145-46).Leave a comment:
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И още плява - БУНДАХИШНА, 7 век, глава 12
Глава XII
О свойствах гор
О свойствах гор он говорит в Авесте, что сначала выросли горы за восемнадцать лет, а (гора) Албурз росла на протяжении восьмисот лет: двести лет (она росла) до стоянки звезд, двести — до стоянки луны, двести — до стоянки солнца, двести — до (стоянки) бесконечного света, тогда как другие горы, числом две тысячи двести сорок четыре, выросли из (горы) Албурз. (Среди них) имеется высокая гора Хугар, Тирак, Албурз, Чикат-Даити, гряда Арезур, гора Хусандом, гора Апарсин, которую называют горой Парса, Заридаз, которая является горой Мануш, гора Агарз, гора Каф, гора Вадгис, гора Хошдастар, гора Арезурбум, гора Роишноманд, гора Падишхваргар, что самая большая в Хварис, гора, которую называют Чин, гора Реванд, гора Дарспед, гора Бакир, гора Васшекафт, гора Сиякоманд, гора Вафр(оманд), гора Спендияд и Кондрасп, гора Аснаванд, <Кондрасп> гора Диздах, гора среди тех, что в Кангдизе, о которых говорят, что они суть спокойствие и радость доброго творца, и (другие) малые горы. Я назову их второй раз: гора Албурз окружает эту землю и связана с небом. Что касается Тирака (горы) Албурз — это та (гора), через которую проходят звезды, луна и солнце, и через нее они возвращаются. Высокая (гора) Хугар — та, с которой, с высоты, (равной росту) тысячи человек, устремляются вниз воды Ардвисура. Гора Хусандом — та, что из блестящего металла — небесного вещества, — в середине моря Фрахвкард, в которое вливается вода с (горы) Хугар. (Гора) Чикат-Даити - это та, что в центре мира, высотой, (равной росту) ста человек, на которой стоит мост Чинвар, и на том месте предъявляют счет душам. <Гора Албурз> Вершина гряды Арезур (находится) у ворот ада, где всегда пристраиваются дэвы. И еще он говорит: “Не считая Албурз, Апарсин — гора наибольшая”. Гору Апарсин называют горой Парса, и начало ее в Систане, а конец — в Хузистане. Гора Мануш — гора, на которой родился Манушчихр. Другие горы в большинстве выросли из этих (гор). И как он говорит: “Земли процветающие (?) располагаются большей частью вокруг (этих) гор”. Гора Агарз — на середине (пути) из Хамадана в Хварезм, и она выросла из горы Апарсин. Гора (Мануш), что на востоке, (находится) на границе с Туркестаном и также связана с Апарсин. Гора Каф выросла из той же горы. Гора Хошдастар (находится) в Систане, гора Арезур — та, что (находится) в области Рума. Гора Падишхваргар — та, что в Табаристане и в области Гилян. Гора Реванд (находится) в Хорасане, на ней воздвигнут огонь Бурзен, и она “Реванд”. потому что “блистательная”. Гора Вадгис — та, что у границы (с областью) Вадгис, и в этой области полно строевого леса (?) и деревьев. Гора Бакир — та, которую Фрасияг из Тура использовал как крепость и поселился в ней, а в дни Йимы в этой славной и cчастливой местности было построено десять тысяч деревень и городов. Гора Васшекафт — та, что в Парсе, — (выросла) из той же горы Апарсин, гора Сиякоманд и гора Вафроманд, что (простираются) вплоть до области Кабул, (также) выросли из нее до горы Чин. Гора Спендияд (находится) в пределах (?) (горы) Реванд. Гора Кондрасп, на вершине которой (озеро) Субар, (находится) в области Туса, гора Кондрасп — в Эранвеже. Гора Аснаванд — в Адурбадагане, гора Роишноманд — та, на которой произросли растения. Малые горы, что во всех местах разных областей и земель и на которых возделывают благодатные пашни, — (их) много по названиям и по числу — выросли из этих самых гор. (Это) гора Ганавад, гора Аспарог, гора Фрахгар, гора Демавенд, гора Равак, гора Зарин, гора Гесбахт, гора Давал, гора Мизин, гора Марак, которые все выросли из горы Апарсин, из которой перечислены другие горы. Что касается горы Давад, она выросла в Хузистане, тоже из (горы) Апарсин. Гора Демавенд — (это) то место, к которому был привязан Беварасп. От той же горы Падишхваргар до горы Кумиш (располагается) гора, которую называют “Мадофрияд”, у которой Виштасп разбил Арджаспа, она находится там посредине равнины. Говорят, в священной войне, когда иранцы терпели поражение, (эта гора) откололась от той горы, скатилась на середину равнины и этим иранцы были спасены, поэтому ее называют “пришедшая на помощь”. Гора Ганавад тоже там, на горной гряде Виштаспа, в месте пребывания огня Бурзенмихр, (на расстоянии) девяти фрасангов на запад. Вершина Равак в Зраваде — это место, которое некоторые так и называют — “Зравад”, а некоторые называют (его) Бишан, некоторые - Калак, потому что от него, по двум сторонам горы, спускаются дороги к <жилищу> крепости, и по этой причине, поскольку она там устроена, (это место) называют “калак” — “крепость”. Это место также называют (находящимся) в области Сарадж. Гора Аспарог установлена в озере Чичаст в Парсе, Фрахгар — в Хорасане, гора Марак - в Ларане. гора Зарин — в Туркестане, гора Бахтан — в Спахане. Другие (горы), что вне этого списка, согласно Авесте маздаяснийской, считают плодородными, и (это) малые горы, что постепенно вырастали на местах.Leave a comment:
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и още плява
ĀDUR BURZĒN-MIHR, an Ātaš Bahrām (see Ātaš), i.e., a Zoroastrian sacred fire of the highest grade. The tradition of its foundation is lost in antiquity, but if it is correct that the temple cult of fire was first established in the late 5th or early 4th century B.C., its installation cannot be put earlier than that. Burzēn-Mihr (“Exalted is Mihr”) is known as a personal name, and is presumed to be that of the unknown founder of the fire. “Burzēn” is a Parthian form, and the fire was established in Parthia (the northeast of Iran). In Bd. 9.21, 37 and 18.14 it is said that its abode (mān) was on Mt. Rēvand (Av. Raēvant); and in one passage in the Šāh-nāma (ed. Borūḵīm, II, p. 416.546-47) Rostam is represented as forgathering with Parthian heroes “in a place called *Revand [mss. Navand], where now flames the lofty fire Barzīn.” In the Ātaš nīāyeš 6 veneration is offered to Mt. Raēvant, whose most likely identification seems to be with a spur of the Nīšāpūr mountains in the district once known as Rēvand in Khorasan. A village nearby called Borzīnān may, it is suggested, preserve an element of the fire’s name. Another identification has, however, been made with Mt. Mehr, five miles from the village called Mehr on the highway between Šāhrūd and Sabzavār. Neither site has been excavated.
Many legends cluster round Ādur Burzēn-Mihr and the two other great fires of ancient Iran, Ādur Farnbāg and Ādur Gušnasp (qq.v.). All three it is said, were brought into existence at creation by Ohrmazd himself “for the protection of the world” (Bd. 18.8); and at first they moved about freely, giving help where it was needed. Thus in the reign of Taxmurup, the legend goes, people were passing one stormy night from Xvaniras to another clime on the back of the bull Srisōk, and the brazier in which they were carrying fire was blown from the bull’s back into the sea. Thereupon these three fires, “like three Glories (Xvarrah)” took the place of the lost fire and burned brightly, “so that there was light” and the people could continue their crossing. The three fires also helped Jamšēd to achieve all that he did in his reign (Bd. 18.10).
As for the legends concerning Ādur Burzēn-Mihr alone, in the Dēnkard, in what is probably the oldest version (based directly on Avestan texts) of the prophet’s life, it is said (Dk. 7.4.75-78) that when Vištāsp asked to behold his future place in heaven, three divine beings came to take his spirit there, namely Vahman, Ašavahišt, and “the holy Fire of Ohrmazd” (ātaxš ī Ohrmazd ī abzōnīg); but in the version of this story given in Bd. 18.14, the third divine being is specifically identified as Ādur Burzēn-Mihr. This fire, it is there said, “revealed many things visibly, in order to propagate the faith and to establish certainty, and to bring Vištāsp and his descendants to the faith of God;” and it was after his conversion through its help, it is said, that Vištāsp made a permanent abode for the fire on Mt. Rēvand. This version of the ancient legend must, one would think, have taken shape during the Parthian period, when Ādur Burzēn-Mihr was probably the most venerated fire in all Iran; and it was presumably embodied in a Parthian zand or commentary on the Avestan texts. That it came to be widely accepted is shown by the fact that it was repeated by the Persian priest Zādspram in the 9th century A.D. (Zātspram, 23.6). It is likewise said in the Persian revāyat of Shapur Bharuchi (see B. N. Dhabhar, The Persian Rivayats of Hormazyar Framarz, Bombay, 1932, p. 72) that “the fire . . . which Zartošt Asfantaman brought from the court of Ohrmazd is called Ādor Borzīn Mehr. WheŋArǰāsp killed Lohrāsp and intended (to extinguish) the fire, that Ādor Borzīn Mehr disappeared suddenly by its own power and settled in a place called Dašt-e Veštāspān.” (The “Pušt ī Vištāspān” is associated in Bd. 9.37 with Mt. Rēvand). In the Šāh-nāma (ed. Borūḵīm, VI, p. 1499.61), Daqīqī recorded yet another tradition, which was that the first fire-temple built by “Goštāsp” after his conversion was that of “Āḏar-e Mehr-Barzīn” and that Zoroaster himself planted the Cypress of Kešmar before its portal. A rival western Iranian tradition is recorded, however, in the 15th century Zarātošt-nāma, where it is the two other great fires, “Āḏar Ḵorād and Āḏar Gošasp” which are said to have come to Goštāsp with “Bahman and Ardebehešt” (F. Rosenberg, Le livre de Zoroastre, St. Petersburg, 1904, line 1142). The promotion, under the Sasanians, of these two western Iranian fires over the Parthian one is even better demonstrated by the tradition (probably first shaped by Persian scholastics at that period) that the three great fires were linked with the three ancient estates of priest, warrior, and husbandman, and that Ādur Burzēn-Mihr was the fire of the last and lowliest estate.
Yet, although always placed third in the Pahlavi books, the Parthian fire essentially retained its fame and glory even under the Sasanians, forming with the other two a splendid triad. This triad undoubtedly represents the main threefold division (political and ecclesiastical) of Iran between the Parthians, Persians, and Medes. So when in the Kār-nāmag ī Ardašīr (ed. Sanjana, 1.11) Pāpak sees a vision of the three fires, Farnbāg, Gušnasp and Burzēn-Mihr, all burning at the house of Sāsān, this is interpreted as a sign that the “sovereignty of the world,” i.e., of Iran, will come to a member of his family. It is held that all three fires are invoked allusively, in Ātaš nīāyeš 4-5 and Sīrōza 9 (see further under Ādur Gušnasp); and all three are called upon by name in the Sōgand-nāma or formula of oath-taking (see Dhabhar, Rivayats, pp. 40, 48). It is said, moreover, that they will give their help to Pēšōtan when he comes to conquer evil (Zand ī Vahman Yašt, ed. B. T. Anklesaria, Bombay, 1957, 7.24,37). With the passing of the centuries the real character of these ancient Ātaš Bahrāms was forgotten (even though Ādur Farnbāg is burning still today); and in one of the revāyats (Dhabhar, Rivayats, p. 60) it is said that they “burn without fuel and they have no fear of water,” that is, they were held to be volcanic or naphtha fires. In this same passage Burzēn-Mihr is wrongly identified with the fire of Karkōy (q.v.). There is also a passage in the Šāh-nāma (ed. Borūḵīm, V, p. 1446. 22) which declares that “Barzīn” was the fire founded by Lohrāsp at Balḵ. The great Parthian fire is mentioned a number of times in the epic, appearing variously (according to the exigencies of meter) as Mehr-Barzīn, Mehr, or Barzīn, and it is used also to provide a simile for fiery fierceness.
As for the actual history of Ādur Burzēn-Mihr, Parthia’s remoteness from the western frontiers of Iran, whence most of our information comes for the pre-Islamic period, means that nothing precise is known of this. It may be safely assumed that the fire was a great center of pilgrimage, even after the fall of the Arsacids; but how long its priests were able to preserve it in the Islamic period is not recorded.
Bibliography : Dk. 7: M. Molé, La légende de Zoroastre selon les textes pehlevis, Paris, 1967. On the three great fires see: G. Hoffmann, Auszüge aus syrischen Akten persischer Märtyrer, Leipzig, 1880, pp. 281-93. Avesta, tr. Darmesteter, I, pp. 149-56. K. Schippmann, Die iranischen Feuerheiligtümer, Berlin and New York, 1917. M. Boyce, “The Zoroastrian Temple Cult of Fire,” JAOS 95, 1975, pp. 454-65.Leave a comment:
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още плява
ASPARUKH, a Middle Iranian proper name attested in ancient Georgia and early medieval Bulgaria (Grecized as Asparoukis); apparently the name was current in the Caucasus and in the Central Asian region where the proto-Bulgars originated. It is a compound with the prior element aspa- “horse;” the second element may be derived from the root *rauk “shine,” i.e., “he who has shining horses.” Among the bearers of this name are:
1. Pitiakhsh (bdeakhsh, vitaxa, Mid. Pers. bidaxš) of Iberia (eastern Georgia), probably during the reign of the Roman emperor Hadrian (117-38 A.D.). The dignity of pitiakhsh approximated to that of satrap. Those of Iberia formed a dynasty of viceroys or co-kings ruling alongside the monarchs of Iberia; and they flourished throughout the 1st-3rd centuries A.D. They had a hereditary necropolis at the ancient Georgian capital, Mtskheta/Armazi (q.v.). Pitiakhsh Asparukh is known solely from his sardony intaglio signet-ring gem, recovered from Grave I of this necropolis. His name and title are clearly engraved in Greek script; and he is depicted in right profile, bearded, with prominent nose, and upper torso bare. This individual and realistic likeness is a rare example of authentic, pre-Christian Georgian portraiture.
2. Sublime Khan of the proto-Bulgars and founder of the medieval Bulgarian state. He reigned at Pliska in northeast Bulgaria, 679-701 A.D., and is celebrated for his decisive victory over the Byzantine emperor, Constantine IV Pogonatus, in 680. His name is also given in medieval sources as Isperikh. One of his predecessors bore the name Bezmer, possibly from Iranian Burz-Mihr (“High is Mithra”). Such names underline the cultural contacts between the proto-Bulgars and the Iranian world, especially with the Alans and Sarmatians of the northern Caucasus and south Russia. The figure of the Madara horseman, carved on a high cliff near Pliska by one of Asparukh’s successors, recalls the use of equestrian rock reliefs in Sasanian Iran.
Bibliography : See most recently R. Schmitt, “Asparuch und Konsorten im Lichte der iranischen Onomastik,” Linguistique Balkanique 28, 1958, pp. 20-30.—1. A. M. Apakidze et al., Mtskheta, itogi arkheologicheskikh issledovaniĭ I, Tiflis, 1958, pl. xlv. Ivan Duichev, “Imya Asparukh v novootkrytykh nadpisyakh Gruzii,” Archiv Orientální 21, 1953, pp. 353-56. D. M. Lang, The Georgians, London and New York, 1966, pp. 84-87.
2. V. Beshevliev, Die proto-bulgarischen Inschriften, Berlin, 1963, pp. 108, 312. The Cambridge Medieval History IV/1, Cambridge, 1966, pp. 484-85. D. M. Lang, The Bulgarians, from Pagan Times to the Ottoman Conquest, London, 1976, pp. 42-45. S. Runciman, A History of the First Bulgarian Empire, London, 1930, pp. 19-30, 273-78.
The etymological connection with Khot. rūkyāṃ (hapax) suggested by H. W. Bailey, BSOAS 42, 1972, pp. 207-08, is highly doubtful, since rūkyāṃ is most likely to be an error for bīrūkyāṃ, Turk, buyruq “commander,” in a badly written text.Leave a comment:
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Както трябва да се признае Безмер и Маламер за славянско ...Юлиан Август написа
А за "плявата" на Кызласов нещо да имаш да кажеш?Leave a comment:
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Щом зачекнахте хубавото ми име, я да питам - кое е било по-напред - Владимир или Волдемар.За Владимир ваша милост каква иранска транкр. ще извади ? Щот славяните нямали -мир /това е вашето изказване по-горе/. Хаха.
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Маготин, айде сега кажи, че Маламир още като са му давали име и са го турили за владетел. О да, питали са иранския шаман, той им е предсказал, че първородната хаймана Енравота ще стане ристиенин. Пфу...
За Безмер какво не е ясно ? А да, не е ясно какъв е иранският му превод. Щото до сега чета само "това име има ирански превод, онова е иранско и т.н." ама доказателства нещо не виждам. Хайде, да видим нещо на масата, освен голи твърдения.
А последният ти пост е такова класическо описание на недъзите във всяка тема за произхода, които Торн беше писал, че става и за еталон. Освен да изопачаваш чуждите думи, нещо сериозно ще има ли като аргумент или само плява, както винаги ?
Дрън-дрън... Гнусната конспирация срещу великото минало на славните прадеди.Понякого си мисля какъв малшанс е имал кавкана Иратаис.Името му не е славянско /пропуска уникалния шанс да бъде първия славянски кавкан в историята можеха и град да кръстят на негово име/а и особено тюркско не звучи.Ясно вторична иранска заемка - сред тюркобългарите / и такова животно има/.
Всъщност такава е цялата схема.
1.Всичко е славянско което има и малък шанс да се опславянчи
2.Когато ситуацията е безнадежна може да мине и за тюркско
3.Ако не нито славянско нито тюркско значи просто не е българско.Чужда заемка и толкова.Leave a comment:
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