Bulgarian Artillery in WW1

[SASH155]

Some corrections - in 1906 the contract with Schneider was for 2 240mm and 2 100mm guns. The two big guns arrived in late 1909 and were put in a specially prepared (however badly chosen and built) fixed position. Big drawback of the guns was their limited range of fire - 10.5 km. The 2 100mm guns were ''Ship'' type (maybe smiliar to those on "Nadezhda"?) according to the Bulgarian documents and were storaged until 09.1912, when these two along with the 2 100mm guns from the "Nadezhda" formed two additional 100mm batteries to defend the Varna harbour. 13 batteries with 26 old guns (most likely old Russian or Krupp guns of the 1870-s vintage, given that thier recorded range was 3 km.) from the Schumen and Vidin fortress battalions plus 1 65mm and 1 56mm guns supplemented the defense of Varna coastline during the 09.1912.
In 1916 several two-guns batteries were formed from captured guns (150mm and 250mm). Also 3 230mm Russian mortars captured in Serbia were installed near Galata.

:sm100: I believe the above "56mm" guns were in fact 57mm caliber. The "230mm" would be the Russian 9 inch or 228mm caliber and the "250mm", if of Russian origin, would be 10 inch or 254mm.

[SASH155]

Deleted message, moved further forward in thread.

[MCP]

Thanks once more for the corrections and the additions.
Only a general remark before I begin a more detailed discussion.
I think Kosar books are very interesting, they may be the best source for artillery in 20th century, but expecially with minor powers there are some mistakes (and some problems). I listed some of them concerning Serbian Army below. As for Bulgarian Army too there are some fact not clear. For instance about 150mm M. 1913. B.A. used commercial Krupp M-1913 field howitzer: this is sure. But when did it obtain it ? And during WW1 did B.A. obtain any German Army Krupp 15cm sFH-13 ? This is not clear.

I believe that the first photo to the top left of this series is actually of a 75mm Krupp field gun, possibly even a 7.7cm FK-96 supplied by Germany after Bulgaria's entry into the war. I say this because the weapon is too small and the shell is too small and in cartridge form.

I too was perplex about this identification, but I found this in two different sources (that of course may have depend from the same source).

Apparently there was a Schneider commercial 105mm QF field howitzer that was purchased by the Romanians, probably in relatively small quantities, designated the M-1910 105mm field howitzer (Canon de 105mm court mle. 1910 Schneider in French...

Thanks, but the problem is : did Bulgarian Army obtained some of these howitzers AFTER World War I. some sources affirmed that it did, but it seems very difficult.

The drawing here is of the modified 10.5 cm leFH-98/09 seen below. The original leFH-98 did not have a recoil system.

Correct.

The second howitzer illustrated is actually the Krupp commercial 10.5cm M-1912/16 field howitzer...

Thanks.

I believe that the above mentioned Schneider 120mm 'M-1909' field howitzer was actually designated as the M-1907, of which Bulgaria apparently took delivery of 36 equipments; the 15cm sFH-07 was purely a prototype and never reached series production or service use.

The designation of Bulgarian and, generally speaking, "little powers" guns varied greatly. Krupp mountain guns used by Bulgarian Army was designed as M. 05 by Kosar, but usually it is designed as M. 1904. Differences like this are many. The Schneider 120mm field howitzer is usually designed M. 1911 (or M. 1910) in Serbian service and M. 1909 in Bulgarian service. I think this is linked with the year when the howitzer arrived in Bulgaria or in Serbia. As for 15cm sFH-07, it was only an exemple for an howitzer with shield.

The only photo of a 25cm sMW n/A (new pattern Minenwerfer) here is the one in the upper right hand photo, the others are all of the older 25cm sMW a/A, short barreled pattern.

In Herbert JÄGER, German Artillery of World War One, pages 69-70 I found the identification that I proposed :
second and third : new pattern
first and fourth : old pattern.

I think you will find that the photos of the dismantled guns behind the horses are in fact German Krupp 15cm sFH-02s...

Yes. It is exacly what I wrote.

Your photos all indicate that these are 90mm de Bange guns, not 80mm guns.
Serbia also used the 90mm de Bange gun.

Serbia did not use 90mm de Bange guns. This is a mistake that I found in many sources (in Kosar too) but thanks to The Edge I could check Serbian official sources and they state without any doubt that Serbian Army use only 80mm gun. The only problem is : it was the French horse artillery gun or a different guns built for Serbian shortening the barrel of French 90mm gun ?
I forgot to correct the title of the pictures (at first I too thought that Serbian Army used 90mm guns).

The first photo on the left here is more likely of a battery of Schneider 70mm M-1907 mountain guns. Note recoil systems and shields. Similar weapons were exported to Italy, Portugal and Spain.

Yes, it is exactly what I wrote : 0S70GbQF means Schneider 70mm Quick-firing Mountain gun.

I will wager that the field howitzer on the left is actually a 120mm M-1907 or M-1911 due to the slenderness of the ordnance and the relative height of the carriage to the man and the lighter construction of the wheels. The 150mm M-1911 used heavier wheels (characterized by their wooden rims distinctive taper towards the wider steel tire, see the other photo at right for this) similar to those used on the later 155mm C15S and C17S.

Maybe. This is the identification I found.

Unless we have inadvertently found an actual photo of the above gun (which was L/28, not L/26) the photo is of a 120mm mle. 1878 de Bаnge gun (which was L/27). The weapon as described in the specs. above was called the "Canon de 120mm long L/28" by Schneider. My source says that the gun had a shield. This was used as the M-1895 in Bulgaria (24 delivered). Serbia took delivery of 16 of these guns.

The long gun used by Serbian Army was 120mm L/26. I’m sure of this. Thanks to The Edge, I could check Serbian official sources - expecially Serbian Military Reform 1897-1900 that have a very very detailed desciption (with datas) of 120mm guns, 120mm howitzers and 150mm mortars bought by Serbian at the end of the 19th century. So it seems it was not the same gun adopted by Bulgarian Army.

[SASH155]

Thanks once more for the corrections and the additions.
Only a general remark before I begin a more detailed discussion.
I think Kosar books are very interesting, they may be the best source for artillery in 20th century, but expecially with minor powers there are some mistakes (and some problems). I listed some of them concerning Serbian Army below. As for Bulgarian Army too there are some fact not clear. For instance about 150mm M. 1913. B.A. used commercial Krupp M-1913 field howitzer: this is sure. But when did it obtain it ? And during WW1 did B.A. obtain any German Army Krupp 15cm sFH-13 ? This is not clear.


I too was perplex about this identification, but I found this in two different sources (that of course may have depend from the same source).


Thanks, but the problem is : did Bulgarian Army obtained some of these howitzers AFTER World War I. some sources affirmed that it did, but it seems very difficult.


Correct.


Thanks.


The designation of Bulgarian and, generally speaking, "little powers" guns varied greatly. Krupp mountain guns used by Bulgarian Army was designed as M. 05 by Kosar, but usually it is designed as M. 1904. Differences like this are many. The Schneider 120mm field howitzer is usually designed M. 1911 (or M. 1910) in Serbian service and M. 1909 in Bulgarian service. I think this is linked with the year when the howitzer arrived in Bulgaria or in Serbia. As for 15cm sFH-07, it was only an exemple for an howitzer with shield.



In Herbert JÄGER, German Artillery of World War One, pages 69-70 I found the identification that I proposed :
second and third : new pattern
first and fourth : old pattern.


Yes. It is exacly what I wrote.



Serbia did not use 90mm de Bange guns. This is a mistake that I found in many sources (in Kosar too) but thanks to The Edge I could check Serbian official sources and they state without any doubt that Serbian Army use only 80mm gun. The only problem is : it was the French horse artillery gun or a different guns built for Serbian shortening the barrel of French 90mm gun ?
I forgot to correct the title of the pictures (at first I too thought that Serbian Army used 90mm guns).


Yes, it is exactly what I wrote : 0S70GbQF means Schneider 70mm Quick-firing Mountain gun.


Maybe. This is the identification I found.



The long gun used by Serbian Army was 120mm L/26. I’m sure of this. Thanks to The Edge, I could check Serbian official sources - expecially Serbian Military Reform 1897-1900 that have a very very detailed desciption (with datas) of 120mm guns, 120mm howitzers and 150mm mortars bought by Serbian at the end of the 19th century. So it seems it was not the same gun adopted by Bulgarian Army.

Above I had earlier written by mistake in the part about Romanian artillery :'The 150mm Schneider field howitzers were the M-1911' when it should read M-1912 instead. I went ahead and corrected it in the quote. As for the 120mm Schneider M-1907 howitzer about which I wrote: 'I believe that the above mentioned Schneider 120mm 'M-1909' field howitzer was actually designated as the M-1907, of which Bulgaria apparently took delivery of 36 equipments; the 15cm sFH-07 was purely a prototype and never reached series production or service use'. the M-1907 designation was solely used because it was the only designation assigned to this particular gun that I was aware of, being completely unaware of the particular Bulgarian or Serbian designations. As for the identity of the gun in the purported photo of the 150mm Schneider 'M-1911' (sic.) field howitzer, I still maintain that the ordnance looks too slender and the carriage too light in construction and low in height (the shield of the M-1912 150mm would be slightly higher than an average man of the period, which the one on the gun in the picture appears not to be) to be of the Schneider 150mm M-1912 field howitzer, thus being more likely its smaller 120mm cousin the M-1911 or even the earlier M-1907 (M-1909 in Bulgaria?). Granted these two different caliber weapons are deceptively very close in appearance, leading to total confusion on the part of captioners (a similar problem exists when identifying the standard German medium long range field gun of WWII, the 10cm sK-18 vs. the standard medium field howitzer, the 15cm sFH-18, both of which shared the same carriage and fudamental design, only the howitzer's barrel was shorter and fatter than that of the gun.) As for the obscure Schneider 120mm L/28 field gun, about which I wrote: Unless we have inadvertently found an actual photo of the above gun (the Schneider 120mm L/28) (which was L/28, not L/26) the photo is of a 120mm mle. 1878 de Bаnge gun (which was L/27). The weapon as described in the specs. above was called the "Canon de 120mm long L/28" by Schneider. My source says that the gun had a shield. This was used as the M-1895 in Bulgaria (24 delivered). Serbia took delivery of 16 of these guns. The following is the description of this weapon (the Bulgarian M-1895 version is described) given earlier on the site:
Gun model : Schneider-'Canet' 120mm L/28 M.1895
Calibre : 120mm L/28
Weight : 1140 kg
Weight with breech mechanism :
Weight in action : 2570 kg
Weight of the platform : 1870 kg
Tube Lenght : 3.360 m (120mm/3,360mm = L/28, not L/26)
Shell Weight : 20 kg. (bursting charge: 1.35 kg black powder)
Shrapnel Weight : 20 kg (369 balls x ? gr - bursting charge: 0.28 kg Schneiderit)
Muzzle Velocity : 480 m/s
Max. Range : 7850 m
Elevation : + 28 / - 12
Remarks : Slow firing heavy gun. Due to the foregoing I still believe that in most major characteristics and details the Serbian 120mm M-1897 and Bulgarian 120mm M-1895 field guns are essentially the same commercial Schneider product. As for the designation 'L/28' that I and others have used here throughout, vs. 'L/26' found in the Serbian source, this may simply reflect a difference between the two customers' baselines and that of Schneider's in measuring the length of the ordnance. As for the 90mm de Bange, I did not realize that it was in fact the 80mm de Bange gun instead that was in Serbian service (Kosar blew that one). What weapon are you referring to exactly with the 15cm 'sFH-07'? You say it had a shield, fine, but what was it exactly? I have never heard of one of these. As for the 'minenwerfer' dispute above, I looked in Jäger's book and he ID'd the weapon with the short barrel and the shell next to it (the one with the lifting handle on the fuze) as actually a 17cm mMW a/A (alteres Art) (I was wrong about it being a 25cm weapon at all), which makes sense because the 25cm sMW n/A had a much longer, fatter barrel with a substantially larger shell (which is shown in a different photo with the 25cm sMW a/A). As for the comment on the 15cm sFH-02, I must not have read the thread carefully enough and leaped before I looked.

[The Edge]

To cut a long story short

About Schneider 120 mm issue:

Two mayor Serbian sources, ("Yugoslav Military Encyclopedia" & "Serbian Army Reforme, 1897-1900") both claims that 120 mm Schneider long guns barrels were L/26 (length 3120 mm, 30 grooves, right twist, 3 to 6º progressive, groove width 9.56 mm, groove depth .8 mm). :sm100:

There is also an interesting info in latter source: „Delivery period started with the approval of gun designs in September 1897“. Schneider gun was, as agreed, a commercial design. If Schneider company already had their standard stock model (bought by Bulgaria 1895), why „design approval“ was necessary two years latter for Serbian order? There must be some differences between this models, maybe including different barrel lenghts – L/28 for Bulgarians, L/26 for Serbs.

Now I’m starting to speculate – Serbian M.97 guns used smokeless powder (only long guns, howitzers and mortars used black powder ammo), longer barrel was therefore not so important to achieve better ballistics (classic French Mle 1878, designed in black-powder-only era was L/27), so use of shorter L/26 barrel makes sense.
(What ammo was used for Bulgarian gun? Serbian had Vo = 575 m/s, both French/Bulgarian about 480-485 m/s)

[The Edge]

Confusion stays

:sm100: The 120mm Schneider field guns that the French D.A. listed may have in fact been actually the Schneider "Canon de 120mm long L/28 Mle. 1897" which was the exact same weapon as the Bulgarian 120mm Schneider M-1895 L/28 field gun. Serbia took delivery from Schneider-Creusot (not "Cresuot" or whatever someone said above) of 16 of these guns and Bulgaria received 24. The Serbs also had 120mm long mle. 1878 de Bange field guns that were delivered largely prior to the war. By this point in the war, needless to say, the Serbs did not have alot of heavy guns of any type left. The 155mm howitzers were likely the Schneider C17S, quantities of which France provided towards the end of the war and post war as well to the new Yugoslav army. The 120mm Baquets were probably hand-me downs from French army stocks, replacing lost Schneider 120mm M-1897 and M-1911 field howitzers.

About French 120 mm Mle 78 (L/27) guns. They were NOT USED by Serbia in Balkan Wars (I saw LemaireSoft’s article about this gun – as with 90 mm gun, this is another mistake). :tdown
Did Serbia got some during 1914-15, as allied help? Not impossible, but no records about this; anyway, Serbs needed other types of artillery more urgently.
Did Serbian Army got them 1916-18? Very probably, as I already wrote.

Another French issue. 16 guns calibre 155 mm in Serbian armament 1918 could be Schneider C17S howitzers (The report clearly identify them as „Schneider howitzers“; in similar 1921 report, there are still the same number of „French 155 mm C“ guns; little confusion exists, bacause in both cases I have translated, not original French documents). On the other hand, I found little hard to believe that French give Serbs 1918 such modern equipment, still in high demand on Western Front by French and US Armies. :sm186:
(You see, at this point Serbs were still armed with obsolete StEtienne Mle07 MGs, Spad VII fighters, 120 mm Mle 1890 Boquet howitzers, etc. I am not aware of ANY allied equipment labelled „M.17“ in Serbian armament on Salonica Front, except Breguet XIV planes in late 1918)
Yugoslav Army did possessed 36 howitzers C17S in mid-thirties, but this material was probably bought during 20s (along French military loan from 1923).

[MCP]

Another ex French coast gun?

Gun model : Schneider 220mm M 1917
French designation : Canon de 220mm Long Mle. 1917
Calibre : 220mm L/35
Weight : 9280 kg
Weight in action : 23000 kg
Weight in marching order : 25880 / 30120 kg
Barrel lenght : 7.700 m
Shell weight : 104.75 kg. (bursting charge: 14-20 kg)
Muzzle velocity : 766 m/s
Max. range : 22800 m
Elevation : + 37° / 0°
Traversing angle : 20° (with platform : 50°)
Remarks : Heavy gun.
In Varna Naval Museum there are two of these guns. According with Hans MEHL, Feld-und Festungsartillerie. Heeresgeschütze aus 500 Jahren. Band 1: 1450 - 1920, page 141, Bulgarian used one of these guns to defend Varna Bay, but is very unlikely since it was introduced in French Army only in June 1918. At the beginning of WW2 French Army had 68 of these guns and many of them were captured by German Army in 1940. At least eight 220mm Schneider guns M 1917 were sent to Bulgarian Army that used them to defend the coast of Thrace (4 guns at Kavala and 4 at Dedeagatch). So I think that the gun in Varna came only during WW2.

[dibo]

Exactly
See:

[MCP]

At least I found the correct data of not mountain guns quickfiring guns. So I updated post 11. According with the information I have Bulgarian Army bought first 48 75mm Krupp mountain guns M. 86 and in 1897 18 75mm Schneider-Creusot mountain guns M. 97. They were organized in six-guns batteries.

[MCP]

15cm Krupp Heavy Gun

Gun model : Krupp 150mm heavy gun on wheeled carriage
German designation : schwere 15cm Kanone i.R.
Calibre : 149.1mm L/40
Weight : 11820 kg
Weight of the platform : 7450 kg
Barrel lenght : 7.670 m
Shell weight : 44.2 kg
Muzzle velocity : 750 m/s
Max. range : 18700 m
Elevation : =
Traversing angle : 60°
Remarks : Long range heavy gun built in two version : the more common L/40 and the longer L/45. In Varna Naval Museum there are two of these guns, one L/40 and one L/45. Were these guns used as coast artillery? I don’t know, but I have some doubts. I think that they were used by German Units in Macedonia. In october/november near Monastir 1916 11th German Army had two batteries armed with 150mm long gun: schw.15cm KnBt. 16 and 20. They remained in Macedonia till the end of the war and schw.15cm KnBt. 16 with three guns fought also at Doiran in 1917. I think that they were armed with the 150mm heavy guns L/40 and L/45.
For other informations and images of this gun see:
http://www.landships.freeservers.com...dkanone_ir.htm

[Гост]

Excuse for a question not absolutely on this theme.
Whether there is no at somebody a same information on number and type gun in armies of Germany and Austria at the end of war, in 1918.

Best regards

[MCP]

If you are interested in it, I can open another thread with the info I have about. But they are not so detailed as for Bulgarian Army.
Do you would like to know only numbers and type of guns, or datas and photoes too?
The question is for everybody in the forum.

[SASH155]

About French 120 mm Mle 78 (L/27) guns. They were NOT USED by Serbia in Balkan Wars (I saw LemaireSoft’s article about this gun – as with 90 mm gun, this is another mistake). :tdown
Did Serbia got some during 1914-15, as allied help? Not impossible, but no records about this; anyway, Serbs needed other types of artillery more urgently.
Did Serbian Army got them 1916-18? Very probably, as I already wrote.

Another French issue. 16 guns calibre 155 mm in Serbian armament 1918 could be Schneider C17S howitzers (The report clearly identify them as „Schneider howitzers“; in similar 1921 report, there are still the same number of „French 155 mm C“ guns; little confusion exists, bacause in both cases I have translated, not original French documents). On the other hand, I found little hard to believe that French give Serbs 1918 such modern equipment, still in high demand on Western Front by French and US Armies. :sm186:
(You see, at this point Serbs were still armed with obsolete StEtienne Mle07 MGs, Spad VII fighters, 120 mm Mle 1890 Boquet howitzers, etc. I am not aware of ANY allied equipment labelled „M.17“ in Serbian armament on Salonica Front, except Breguet XIV planes in late 1918)
Yugoslav Army did possessed 36 howitzers C17S in mid-thirties, but this material was probably bought during 20s (along French military loan from 1923).

:shrug: I hope that thumbs down was not for that entire article, since I researched and wrote it, put alot of time into it, and I even translated it into English from the French I originally wrote it in. I am glad that you pointed out that the Serbs probably did not have any “Matériel de 120mm mle. 1878 de Bange” in their inventory in 1914, and that most likely they received them much later (1916-1918); unfortunately, I lacked Serbian primary sources when I wrote the article and was relying on the usual suspects ie: Kosar, Hogg, Gander et al., as well as a few photos, the dates of which were not captioned. I assumed, and, well, made an ass of myself. It goes to show the limitations of secondary source materials. I will get in touch with Dominique Lemaire who runs the site, and we will revise the article, adding the 80mm de Bange field gun (by the way was it a mle. 1877 or 1878? I'm not really sure) and deleting the references to Serbia in association with the 90mm field gun (which I believe are still there).

[Гост]

The information about datas and photoes on artillery WW1 and WW2 at me basically is present.
And here the guns given on number, it is especial not the most known at me is not present.

[sturmpanzer]

Bulgarian navy

Hi
this is a bit off topic, but I am currious what kind of Navy did Bulgaria have in 1914/1915