Някой беше повдигнал темата, та се обърнах към един познат ингилиз от един друг форум, който има магистърска степен по история на ВСВ. Имам общо 3 писма от него, и ми се ще да ги публикувам тук 
Първо писмо:
Второ писмо:
Трето писмо:
Първо писмо:
Hi Fredrich,
I'll certainly have a look at this for you over the weekend if
poss (I am very careful about where I go on the net when using my University
Employee ID!) A couple of points that are worth bearing in mind though are
that the entire issue of 'Holocaust Revisionism' is a very tangled web and
it can get immensely complex in both contextual terms and scientific terms!
In general terms, the issue of bias is unavoidable, in that it is, put
bluntly, a question of a group of people challenging the generally held
historical record and this wouldn't be such an issue if these groups were
not in most cases connected to extreme right-wing/racist groups. Often I
find that this underlying reasoning seeps through into their arguments, but
I'll stop going on about it as you should draw your own conclusions.
A very good website to visit that is very unbiased: they don't ban anyone
who is reasonable and thus you get to see an active debate.
WWW.ThirdReichForum.com look in their Holocaust and Warcrimes Forum, there
are a number of good posters but look out for Roberto and Scott Smith. The
latter typically will argue every revisionist point available and Rovberto
will counter him and he tends to use vast quantities of original
documentation (often in its original form and then translated from the
original language).
WWW.Holocaustdenialontrial.org is also a very good site which has the
complete transcripts from the David Irving libel case in which he sued
Deborah Lipstadt and Penguin books. putting aside the actual cause of the
case, it became very much about the validity of Revisionist arguments and
this was held in the High Court in the UK so should be taken seriously by
anyone interested in the issues raised.
Just some quick bits on your specific questions:
On the number of Jews in Europe before the war the discrepancies are caused
by all sorts of factors, not least the demographic shifts and difficulty of
carrying out censuses before the war. Also, pre-war census information
didn't count Soviet Jews who numbered a good couple of million and also the
fact that to the Nazis 'Jew' was a racial category not simply a religious
one, so many non-practising Jews, converted Jews, or people who fitted the
'Jewish' racial profile would have found there to a gas chamber even though
they would have never considered themselves to be Jewish!
As for testimony frmo US servicemen, it would need to be clarified which
docuemntation they were referring to: the camp documents went through
different chains of communication than the Einsatzgruppen reports, and many
of the victims of the later exterminations at Auschwitz were not ever
registered as prisoners, they simply arrived and disppeared. Also, I guess
it depends who the US soldiers were and what their role was as they may not
have been in possession of all of the relevant information. I haven't heard
this theory before.
As for the blueprints of Auschwitz, they do exist and were found in the
German archives. Long and pedantic debates tend to focus on translation sof
words such as 'gas-cellar' etc. The ThirdReichForum has had a few threads
about this.
As for the use of the Zyklon-B, again this comes down to very picky
points. One of which relates to the amount needed to kill insects and that
that concentration would take ages to ventilate: not taking into account
that only much smaller amounts are needed to kill people and thus it takes
less time to ventilate. You may also encounter Fred Leuchter and his
fraudulent claims in this area.
To be honest my main areas is the war itself and the strategic and
operational management of the war in the east, but the Holocaust just came
along as an MA so I did it!
Anyway I must dash as it's time to go home now. Hope this is some use
to you, I'd check both of the sites I've mentioned as the first will
probably contain all of the information for any arguments you may see: from
both sides, and the second places the revisionist arguments as put across by
David Irving against the hiostorical records as supported by several very
well respected academics and it is all supervised by a Judge (In fact it is
very interesting reading.)
If you need any other info don't hesitate to contact me. I'll try and
have a proper look into your questions over the weekend!
Have a good one,
Paper Sun
I'll certainly have a look at this for you over the weekend if
poss (I am very careful about where I go on the net when using my University
Employee ID!) A couple of points that are worth bearing in mind though are
that the entire issue of 'Holocaust Revisionism' is a very tangled web and
it can get immensely complex in both contextual terms and scientific terms!
In general terms, the issue of bias is unavoidable, in that it is, put
bluntly, a question of a group of people challenging the generally held
historical record and this wouldn't be such an issue if these groups were
not in most cases connected to extreme right-wing/racist groups. Often I
find that this underlying reasoning seeps through into their arguments, but
I'll stop going on about it as you should draw your own conclusions.
A very good website to visit that is very unbiased: they don't ban anyone
who is reasonable and thus you get to see an active debate.
WWW.ThirdReichForum.com look in their Holocaust and Warcrimes Forum, there
are a number of good posters but look out for Roberto and Scott Smith. The
latter typically will argue every revisionist point available and Rovberto
will counter him and he tends to use vast quantities of original
documentation (often in its original form and then translated from the
original language).
WWW.Holocaustdenialontrial.org is also a very good site which has the
complete transcripts from the David Irving libel case in which he sued
Deborah Lipstadt and Penguin books. putting aside the actual cause of the
case, it became very much about the validity of Revisionist arguments and
this was held in the High Court in the UK so should be taken seriously by
anyone interested in the issues raised.
Just some quick bits on your specific questions:
On the number of Jews in Europe before the war the discrepancies are caused
by all sorts of factors, not least the demographic shifts and difficulty of
carrying out censuses before the war. Also, pre-war census information
didn't count Soviet Jews who numbered a good couple of million and also the
fact that to the Nazis 'Jew' was a racial category not simply a religious
one, so many non-practising Jews, converted Jews, or people who fitted the
'Jewish' racial profile would have found there to a gas chamber even though
they would have never considered themselves to be Jewish!
As for testimony frmo US servicemen, it would need to be clarified which
docuemntation they were referring to: the camp documents went through
different chains of communication than the Einsatzgruppen reports, and many
of the victims of the later exterminations at Auschwitz were not ever
registered as prisoners, they simply arrived and disppeared. Also, I guess
it depends who the US soldiers were and what their role was as they may not
have been in possession of all of the relevant information. I haven't heard
this theory before.
As for the blueprints of Auschwitz, they do exist and were found in the
German archives. Long and pedantic debates tend to focus on translation sof
words such as 'gas-cellar' etc. The ThirdReichForum has had a few threads
about this.
As for the use of the Zyklon-B, again this comes down to very picky
points. One of which relates to the amount needed to kill insects and that
that concentration would take ages to ventilate: not taking into account
that only much smaller amounts are needed to kill people and thus it takes
less time to ventilate. You may also encounter Fred Leuchter and his
fraudulent claims in this area.
To be honest my main areas is the war itself and the strategic and
operational management of the war in the east, but the Holocaust just came
along as an MA so I did it!
Anyway I must dash as it's time to go home now. Hope this is some use
to you, I'd check both of the sites I've mentioned as the first will
probably contain all of the information for any arguments you may see: from
both sides, and the second places the revisionist arguments as put across by
David Irving against the hiostorical records as supported by several very
well respected academics and it is all supervised by a Judge (In fact it is
very interesting reading.)
If you need any other info don't hesitate to contact me. I'll try and
have a proper look into your questions over the weekend!
Have a good one,
Paper Sun
Второ писмо:
Hi FF,
I had a very unproductive weekend in the end involving large
quantities of alcohol and computer games! Unfortunately I did not have a
look at the Holocaust. But work is quite quiet today so I'll have a look at
the questions throughout the day!!
My answers are a bit generalised as i don't have any sources here at
present.
Regarding the pre-war Jewish population, there is a specific thread on this
issue at WWW.ThirdReichForum.com but my thoughts are as folows:
The issue of pre-war census figures is interesting in the sense that it
creates an artificial conflict between the perceived Jewish population in
Europe and the number that were subsequently exterminated during the War.
This differential is used as evidence by ‘revisionists’ to suggest that
because these figures do not match then they must all be false: that by
demonstrating this discrepancy this somehow negates the entire Holocaust and
the rest of the evidence that exists.
Of course it is also true that the actual number of Jews killed in the
Holocaust will never be known: accepted figures now reach a maximum of about
5.1 million, although it could vary by quite a large percentage due to
various factors such as incorrect records, destroyed records, destroyed
corpses etc. More importantly the figures for the post-war Jewish
population of Europe would have been relatively hard to formulate as in the
summer of 1945 there were anything up to 80 million refugees in various
countries and in that chaos I imagine that it was quite difficult to collect
accurate data.
I would certainly want to see copies of the original documents of both
pre-war and post-war population figures before I could comment more in
depth. The issue will undoubtedly be complicated by various factors, for
example in the Soviet Union religion was officially proscribed (until after
the German invasion when religion was unbanned to allow it be a unifying
force) so in the pre-war Soviet Union there were officially no Jews.
Additionally, pre-war Poland was the most anti-Semitic country in Europe
(hard to believe in regard of the later conduct of the Reich) so any Polish
Jews would have been unlikely to have advertised their religious affinity if
it could be possibly avoided: Orthodox Jews were easily identifiable but
this was not the case with the assimilated Jews. This is also relevant
across the rest of Europe to a certain extent in that many Jews were Jews in
name only: they may have converted to Christianity or just lapsed any
religious following. The Nazis were much more stringent in their
definitions. One important thing to consider in regard to this argument is
that if there were not the millions of Jews in Europe that the ‘revisionist’
argument would argue, then how did the SS prior to the Wannsee conference
calculate a European Jewish population of around 11 million?
I think the closest analogy to consider with regard to this ‘revisionist’
argument is regarding the World Trade Centre attacks. Now the initial
reports that hit the British media gave an occupation figure of 50,000 and a
casualty figure of around 10,000. Of course no-one actually knows exactly
how many people were in the buildings at the time but this does not negate
the fact that when they were hit that the people present of whom there were
substantial numbers were killed. This casualty figure was later lowered to
5,000 and the accepted figure now is around 3,000. The ‘revisionist’
argument suggests that because there are discrepancies in the figures then
this means that they are all wrong and therefore the attacks didn’t occur.
One interesting point the ‘revisionist’ argument does not address in this
argument is if these millions of people who were killed were not Jews then
who were they?
Hope this is of some use,
Papersun.
I had a very unproductive weekend in the end involving large
quantities of alcohol and computer games! Unfortunately I did not have a
look at the Holocaust. But work is quite quiet today so I'll have a look at
the questions throughout the day!!
My answers are a bit generalised as i don't have any sources here at
present.
Regarding the pre-war Jewish population, there is a specific thread on this
issue at WWW.ThirdReichForum.com but my thoughts are as folows:
The issue of pre-war census figures is interesting in the sense that it
creates an artificial conflict between the perceived Jewish population in
Europe and the number that were subsequently exterminated during the War.
This differential is used as evidence by ‘revisionists’ to suggest that
because these figures do not match then they must all be false: that by
demonstrating this discrepancy this somehow negates the entire Holocaust and
the rest of the evidence that exists.
Of course it is also true that the actual number of Jews killed in the
Holocaust will never be known: accepted figures now reach a maximum of about
5.1 million, although it could vary by quite a large percentage due to
various factors such as incorrect records, destroyed records, destroyed
corpses etc. More importantly the figures for the post-war Jewish
population of Europe would have been relatively hard to formulate as in the
summer of 1945 there were anything up to 80 million refugees in various
countries and in that chaos I imagine that it was quite difficult to collect
accurate data.
I would certainly want to see copies of the original documents of both
pre-war and post-war population figures before I could comment more in
depth. The issue will undoubtedly be complicated by various factors, for
example in the Soviet Union religion was officially proscribed (until after
the German invasion when religion was unbanned to allow it be a unifying
force) so in the pre-war Soviet Union there were officially no Jews.
Additionally, pre-war Poland was the most anti-Semitic country in Europe
(hard to believe in regard of the later conduct of the Reich) so any Polish
Jews would have been unlikely to have advertised their religious affinity if
it could be possibly avoided: Orthodox Jews were easily identifiable but
this was not the case with the assimilated Jews. This is also relevant
across the rest of Europe to a certain extent in that many Jews were Jews in
name only: they may have converted to Christianity or just lapsed any
religious following. The Nazis were much more stringent in their
definitions. One important thing to consider in regard to this argument is
that if there were not the millions of Jews in Europe that the ‘revisionist’
argument would argue, then how did the SS prior to the Wannsee conference
calculate a European Jewish population of around 11 million?
I think the closest analogy to consider with regard to this ‘revisionist’
argument is regarding the World Trade Centre attacks. Now the initial
reports that hit the British media gave an occupation figure of 50,000 and a
casualty figure of around 10,000. Of course no-one actually knows exactly
how many people were in the buildings at the time but this does not negate
the fact that when they were hit that the people present of whom there were
substantial numbers were killed. This casualty figure was later lowered to
5,000 and the accepted figure now is around 3,000. The ‘revisionist’
argument suggests that because there are discrepancies in the figures then
this means that they are all wrong and therefore the attacks didn’t occur.
One interesting point the ‘revisionist’ argument does not address in this
argument is if these millions of people who were killed were not Jews then
who were they?
Hope this is of some use,
Papersun.
Трето писмо:
Hi FF,
just a few notes on the other questions you asked:
Regarding the issue of American serviceman claiming to have seen
documentation that claimed there were around 3 million victims of the
Holocaust, I am rather dubious about this idea.
As I understand American military archives hold a great deal of
documentation regarding the Holocaust and the individual statements of
soldiers would appear to be out of any form of context with this fact. I
would want to know more details before I made any decisions as to the
credibility of these assertions: who were the soldiers, what units were they
from, what role did they have in the gathering and collating of
documentation, when were these allegations made, etc.
At present this assertion is lacking in any hard evidence to support it
which makes it very hard to address. This is not simply to write it off,
but I would not be willing to give the idea any great credence unless more
details were available.
The Idea of 3 million dead being too high a figure is interesting. It would
be interesting to see the sources that are used to support this claim. It
is worth mentioning that in late 1944 Himmler asked SS statisticians to
access how successful the ‘Final Solution’ had been, and they produced a
figure greater than 4 million for Jews.
Again though this argument will run into the classic ‘revisionist’ ploy of
disregarding as forgeries any documentation that contradicts their theory:
thus even SS records are considered to be false in these circumstances which
does raise the question of how, if there is so much uncertainty, their
conjectural calculations can be seen as more accurate?
As for the Auschwitz blueprints they certainly exist. There is a good
debate featuring a balanced input and evidence from both sides in the Irving
case:
Look under Auschwitz and then there is a documentary evidence section
relating to the design and construction of the gas chambers/crematoria.
There is also a section on the use effectiveness of Zyklon B.
To be honest, I would consider the transcripts from the Irving case to be
possibly the best source for any debate on the relevant merits of Holocaust
Revisionism. It was an extremely important case and as such the
‘revisionist’ argument was put forward in its entirety, as was the counter
arguments. The evidence is all present in the transcripts and although it’s
heavy going sometimes it is worth reading.
The Judgement is particularly good as the Judge weighs up the evidence and
of course he is no expert on the Holocaust so it can be suggested that he is
about as objective an opinion as could be obtained.
Regards,
Paper Sun
just a few notes on the other questions you asked:
Regarding the issue of American serviceman claiming to have seen
documentation that claimed there were around 3 million victims of the
Holocaust, I am rather dubious about this idea.
As I understand American military archives hold a great deal of
documentation regarding the Holocaust and the individual statements of
soldiers would appear to be out of any form of context with this fact. I
would want to know more details before I made any decisions as to the
credibility of these assertions: who were the soldiers, what units were they
from, what role did they have in the gathering and collating of
documentation, when were these allegations made, etc.
At present this assertion is lacking in any hard evidence to support it
which makes it very hard to address. This is not simply to write it off,
but I would not be willing to give the idea any great credence unless more
details were available.
The Idea of 3 million dead being too high a figure is interesting. It would
be interesting to see the sources that are used to support this claim. It
is worth mentioning that in late 1944 Himmler asked SS statisticians to
access how successful the ‘Final Solution’ had been, and they produced a
figure greater than 4 million for Jews.
Again though this argument will run into the classic ‘revisionist’ ploy of
disregarding as forgeries any documentation that contradicts their theory:
thus even SS records are considered to be false in these circumstances which
does raise the question of how, if there is so much uncertainty, their
conjectural calculations can be seen as more accurate?
As for the Auschwitz blueprints they certainly exist. There is a good
debate featuring a balanced input and evidence from both sides in the Irving
case:
Look under Auschwitz and then there is a documentary evidence section
relating to the design and construction of the gas chambers/crematoria.
There is also a section on the use effectiveness of Zyklon B.
To be honest, I would consider the transcripts from the Irving case to be
possibly the best source for any debate on the relevant merits of Holocaust
Revisionism. It was an extremely important case and as such the
‘revisionist’ argument was put forward in its entirety, as was the counter
arguments. The evidence is all present in the transcripts and although it’s
heavy going sometimes it is worth reading.
The Judgement is particularly good as the Judge weighs up the evidence and
of course he is no expert on the Holocaust so it can be suggested that he is
about as objective an opinion as could be obtained.
Regards,
Paper Sun
Абе нещо ми намирисва тая работа! Защо по време на войната никой не е крещял с пълно гърло "Прекратете геноцида над евреите!", "Не на Холокоуста!" Ами ако не е имало такъв ... :?
)
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