Руско-финландската война

[Бранник]

Мисля че финландската армия в тази война е една от най-героично билите се армии в човешката история. Човешкият потенциал, техническото приемущество, всичко е на страната на Червената армия. Скандинавците обаче доказват на света неоспоримия си дух...

Факт, финландците се представят повече от отлично срещу червените пълчища.Всъщност реалните загуби на руснаците възлизат на около 800 000 души, докато финландците губят само 50 000...мисля че това е достатъчно.

Също така най-успешният снайперист воювал някога не е Carlos Hathcock или Василий Зайцев, истинският "победител" е Simo Häyhä, фин избил 505 руски войници през войната използвайки Suomi M31 и Finnish M28 Mosin Nagant.

С примитивни средства като добилият популярност коктейл "Молотов" финландците изваждат от строя близо 2000 танка на "Червената армия".

"Спечелихме 22 000 квадратни метра земя- точно толкова ни е нужно за да погребем жертвите си" - руски генерал след края на войната

"Езерата ни са пълни с мъртви руснаци"- финландски ветеран

Наричаш финландците "скандинавци"- нещо с което не мога да се съглася, не от географска а от етническа гледна точка- те доста се отличават от шведи и норвежци да речем.

Относно Карелия(също и Ингрия) бих казал че това са финландски земи, руснаците просто нямат право да претендират за тях.За съжеление обаче знаем как стоят нещата в момента...

[виталий]

"Относно Карелия(също и Ингрия) бих казал че това са финландски земи, руснаците просто нямат право да претендират за тях.За съжеление обаче знаем как стоят нещата в момента... "
Люди, пожалейте Русских
Где нам жить? Даже Москва стоит на Мордовских землях...
А если серь¸зно, ты Бранник сначало вспомни, за счет кого вы получили
территориальные приобритения после Второй мировой войны...
А Русские не претендуют на Карелию, они владеют ею. :imperial:

[gollum]

А если серь¸зно, ты Бранник сначало вспомни, за счет кого вы получили
территориальные приобритения после Второй мировой войны...

Е, Виталий, ще ме прощаваш, но ние (българите) не получаваме никакви териториални придобивки след ВСВ - получаваме по двустранен договор с Румъния Северна Добруджа през 1940 г., ако не се лъжа (но тази територия е българска - румънците ни я отнемат след Междусъюзническата война). Поясни се какво точно имаш предвид.

Бранник, РККА, естествено, не е загубила 2000 танка през Съветско-финландската война. А и бойните й загуби са значително по-малки от 800 000 души.

[messire Woland]

Единствените земи, които ние получаваме, са тези по Крайовската спогодба от 1940та година. Южна Добруджа, като това става не точно по воля на СССР. В изработването на договора са включени няколко страни.
А Виталий, кои земи не са руски? Има ли такива всъщност

[messire Woland]

Допълнение: всъщност, руските загуби, убити + ранени са между 200 000 и 300 000 души. За точното число ще трябва да видя книгите какво казват.

[виталий]

Gollum, ты задумывался о том, кто из стран Оси и их союзников по окончанию второй мировой войны не потерял территорию а приобрел
е¸? Подумай, и поим¸шь, что это Болгария... Конечно, если, ты веришь в "избранность" Болгар по сравнению с остальными, то это для тебя будет естественно.
Но на самом деле плевали все страны победители на Ваши договора с Румынией, и хоть Woland и не верит, что это благодаря Сталину, который видел в Болгарах потенциальных союзников ( в отличаи от Румын), а наверное надеется что это Черчил настоял на территориальных приобритениях Болгарии (за то, что Болгарские солдаты бились на стороне Советских), но я думаю, что это вс¸-же Советы помогли Вам сохранить приобритения.

[gollum]

Е, не съм съгласен с теб, Виталий, защото въпросната "придобивка" (а всъщност възвръщане) е по договор между две от победените държави и топреди да се включат във войната - т.е., няма каквато и да е юридическа възможност този договор да бъде преразгледан след края й. Освен ако да речем Румъния се бе отказала от този договор, но тя не го е правила. Така че тази "придбивка" не е за ничия "сметка".
Виж несъмнено СССР има роля за това, че България не губи земи, с това съм съгласен. Но това е друг въпрос.

[виталий]

Gollum, давай попроще?
У России ровно столько-же прав на всю Финляндию ( Корелию, Аляску, Польшу, Курильские острава, Калифорнию о т.д и т.п) сколько и у Болгарии на все е¸ потереные и приобретенные в какоето-время территории. Прав тот- у кого больше прав. И к сожалению это ( а может и к счастью) это правило действует и сейчас...

[gollum]

У России ровно столько-же прав на всю Финляндию ( Корелию, Аляску, Польшу, Курильские острава, Калифорнию о т.д и т.п) сколько и у Болгарии на все е¸ потереные и приобретенные в какоето-время территории.

Виталий, я согласился бы с тобой если только ету болгарскую (с 1940-го года) територию, о которой идет реч была населена не-болгарского по самоопределению населения (какова ситуация с Карелию, Польшу, Финландию или Аляску). Да ето не так - из болгарских територии, которые после Междусоюзнической войны (и ПСВ) перешли к Румынию, северный дял Добруджа был за 20 лет вполне асимилирован, но южный - нет (сначала все население, проживающее там самоопределялось как болгарское). Именно етот дял Румыния возвратила Болгарию в 1940-вого года по соответствущей спогодбы. Так что етнически ета територия болгарская (что нельзя сказать о Полшу, Финляндию или Аляску - они определено етнически неруские територии - хотя как империя Русия имела определеные права над ними).
Так что если имет в разчет етнический критерий или критерий самоопределения как основной в етых делах, Болгария имеет болше прав на Добруджа чем Румыния (или скажем, чем Русия над Полшу или Финландию).

[Бранник]

А Русские не претендуют на Карелию, они владеют ею. :imperial:

Не забравяй и Ингрия...
Поствам ти един текст за Ингрия, дано да знаеш английски, защото не ми се занимава да превеждам...

Ingria


The map of historical Ingria

Historical Ingria or Ingermanland lies along the southern shore of the gulf of Finland and both banks of the river Neva. In the west it borders Estonia. In 1710 Ingria was designated as the Province of St. Petersburg and in 1927 as Leningrad Province. Today's Ingrians are descendants of Finns who moved to Ingria in the seventeenth century. Before that, the province of Ingria was inhabited by people who spoke a Finno-Ugric language and had an orthodox belief: orthodox Votes and Izhories and some Russians. With the peace treaty of Stolbova in 1617, Ingria was attached to the Swedish kingdom. Due to the new political situation a large part of the original inhabitants moved or were moved during the next decades and new people arrived into the area from Finland The Swedes tried to convert the orthodox people into Lutherans, but instead provoked an exodus to neighbouring regions. To compensate the loss of inhabitants, the Swedes convinced Finnish Lutheran farmers to move to the area. The Finns were offered tax support. Within a short space of time a strong Lutheran population had settled in Ingria, consisting of many different tribes. These Finns are the ancestors of today's Ingrians. At the end of the century, 75 percent of the inhabitants in Ingria were Lutherans. The name Ingria is of Scandinavian origin (Finnish Inkeriamaa - the land of Princess Ingrid. Ingrians call themselves Inkeriläinen or Inkerinsuomalainen.


The national flag of Ingria

During the early eighteenth century, Russia re-conquered Ingria, and the new capital St. Petersburg was constructed in the region. Russians started to immigrate to the region. However, the Ingrians preserved their language and culture and the Finnish speaking people remained an important minority in the province. Before the Russian revolution, between 100,000 and 200,000 of them lived in Ingria. After the revolution, most of Ingria came under Soviet rule except for one part in the west which was incorporated with Estonia. As late as the 1890s some 90% of the rural population of St. Petersburg government [meaning "province"] was Finnish-speaking, as was some 10% of the city's population.


The arms of Ingria


Viola tricolor. The national flower of Ingria.

The first Lutheran congregation was founded in Ingria in the late 16th century. At the time when the Lutheran faith established its roots in Scandinavia and Finland, it became a major religion south and east of the Gulf of Finland. As early as 1655, there were 58 parishes, 36 churches and 42 pastors. Before the Russian revolution of 1917, there were 32 Ingrian parishes in St. Petersburg and the surrounding area from the Estonian border to the Finnish one. During the Soviet regime, the churches were destroyed or closed.


The Ingrian national dress

Due to Lutheranism the Ingrians' education has been good. Tests in reading skills and Sunday schools for children already existed during the Swedish period and continued later throughout the Russian dominion. In 1785 the first primary school was opened in the village of Kolppana but cultural life only gained momentum in the 19th century. The Russian annexation of Finland (1809) and abolition of serfdom (1861) were of special importance for Ingermanland as the liberation of peasants brought with it radical changes. Choirs and societies were founded. To improve the educational standards a theological seminary was opened in Kolppana in 1863 where parish clerks and schoolmasters were trained. A newspaper Pietarin Sanomat (short-lived, as were the several following) was begun in 1870, and calendar Pietarin suomalainen kalenteri was published in 1871. But, as elsewhere, the last decades of the century were also a period of russification in Ingermanland. Regardless, the first Ingrian singing festival took place in Skuoritsa in 1899 and by 1913 the sixth was occuring in Kolppana. In addition to Christian education the parsons were also able to support a spirit of national identity.

The Soviet period

In 1920 the Ingrians were promised more propitious conditions for promoting their national culture. Educational conditions improved, and Finnish became more widely used in cultural life; in 1928 the Kuivaisi (Toksova) national district was formed in the Northern Ingeria and the Leningrad region had 54 national village councils by the year 1936.
Vernacular education at schools continued (314 schools in 1918), and the Finnish language was used in offices, radio programmes and elsewhere. Two daily and eight other newspapers appeared. The publishing house Kirja managed to publish 768 books -- textbooks, disctionaries, fiction -- in Leningrad and in Petroskoi during the period 1927--37. These activities were kept strictly separate, however, from Finland and even aimed to counterpoise. In 1937, just preceding the total dispersion of the Ingrians, all Finnish schools were russified, most of the intellectuals killed and the Ingrian cultural life completely extinguished. During the 1930s, the Ingrians suffered from Stalin's regime. A majority of the farmers were deported, the use of the Finnish language was prohibited and the Finnish speaking intelligentsia was annihilated. Ingrians were shipped off to prison camps or deported to Siberia and to central Russia. Very few remain, outnumbered by Russian population.
b The violence began in 1928 with compulsory collectivization. Around 18,000 people were deported from Northern Ingria to East Karelia, Central Asia and elsewhere in order to frighten others into accepting collective farms. A further 7,000 were deported to the Urals and to the coast of the Caspian Sea in 1935, and 20,000 to Siberia and Central Asia in 1936. Four parishes of Northern Ingria were totally emptied of Finns, which was a probable factor in the tension that led to the Finnish-Russian war. All churches and religious societies were closed by 1932 and all Ingrian cultural and social activities were brought to a halt by 1937. The national district of Kuivaisi (Toksova) was liquidated in 1939. By 1929, at least 13,000 Finns had been killed and 37,000 were suffering in Russia.

The World War II

Ingermanland also suffered during World War II. In 1942, during the blockade of Leningrad, 25,000--30,000 Finns were deported to Siberia. When the Germans occupied the the southern and western parts of Ingria during World War II, most of the remaining Finnish speaking people were evacuated to Finland. Their resettlement to Finland was allowed by German authorities to the basis of applications. 63,227 Ingrian refugees, including the Votes and the Izhorians, had left for Finland by October 31, 1944. Many of them settled in Finnish families, helping them by working on farms. After the war, the Soviets demanded these people back and Finland had to return them to the Soviet Union after the armistice. The Ingrians were promised by Soviet auhtorities that they could return to their own region, but instead were deported to different parts of the Soviet Union. 55,773 Ingrians arrived and were scattered to the regions of Novgorod, Kalinin, Vologda, Sverdlovsk, etc. Some years after the war even those children of Ingrian descent that had been adopted by Finnish families were reclaimed by the Soviet Union. Later some Ingrians moved back to Ingria. Others moved to Estonia, partly because the Estonian language is close to Finnish.

Ingrians´ remigration

Todays IngriansBy the year 1943, only 4,000 Finns remained in Ingermanland. All the others had either been resettled, deported, dispersed or had fled. Only in 1956 were the Ingrians finally allowed to return to their native country. The 1989 census showed that there were 67 359 Finns living in the Soviet Union, of whom 34.6 % spoke their native language. Approximately one quarter of them lived in Karelia, another quarter in Estonia, a third quarter in the Leningrad Province and the remainder somewhere else. The Ingrian Finns have not been separated from the rest of the Finns since the census of 1939. In 1989, approximately 1 % of the inhabitants of the Leningrad Province (excluding St. Petersburg) were Finns. The Ingrians are now living in different parts of the world, many in the western part of the former Soviet Union, i.e. Estonia, Carelia and Ingria.
The historical guilt the Finnish society feels for expelling these people to the Soviet Union may be one reason for the decision to accept the Ingrians as returnees in Finland. At a press briefing, he said that the Ingrian Finns living in the former Soviet Union could be regarded as Finnish returnees. The term returnee means that these people could move to Finland easily by showing that they had Finnish ancestors. The words of Koivisto had a huge impact on the Finns in ex-Soviet Union who started to move to Finland in great numbers. About 30,000 people have already moved to Finland thanks to Koivisto's statement, and another 20,000 are waiting in Russia and Estonia. Nobody knows for sure how many can come in the end.
Some came because they felt Finnish. Others just used the opportunity to move to the west. Within the big group of Ingrians in Finland are huge differences in motives for their move. The different reasons resulted in different indentity problems. It seems that almost every Ingrian Finn in Finland struggles with the question: Who am I?
b The ethnic dispersion of the Ingrian Finns makes their survival as an nation very dubious. The decrease in the numbers of people who still can speak their mother tongue demonstrates the difficulty of retaining the language in a foreign environment. Among the Ingrian Finns the language shift is already well under way.
Under these circumstances we should not so much investigate the dangers, but rather pose the question: Is there any hope left for the Ingrian Finns? Not everything is lost, however, because the Russian government has rehabilitated the Ingrian Finns as a nation (1993); since 1989, 15 church congregations have been restored (in 1918 there were approximately 100) and national cultural societies have been established in Finland, Leningrad Province, Karelia, Estonia, Sweden and elsewhere.

Brief History

The destiny of the Ingrian Finns has been seriously affected by the location of the Russian-Swedish border on the Isthmus of Karelia after the Great Northern War, which separated them from the rest of the Finns. Yet 300 years of life and work passed before the Ingrian Finns were labelled strangers and their territory claimed as having been historically Russian. The Soviet regime started implementing resolute measures.
17th century Ingria came under Swedish rule. Immigration of Finnish peasants.
1702 Russian czar Peter the Great gained access to the Baltic Sea and a new capital St.Petersburg in Ingria.
1920 Ingria was recognised as a part of Soviet Russia by the Peace Treaty of Tartu.
1928 – collectivisation started, the first mass deportation.
1929-1936 The majority of the Ingrian Finnish were deported to Siberia, Central Asia and the Kola Peninsula. The territory was resettled by newcomers from Russia. 1932 – religious practices are forbidden.
1937 – cultural activities in Finnish are forbidden.
1939 – at least 13,000 Finns are murdered and another 37,000 are taken to concentration camps.
1942 – almost 30,000 people are deported to Siberia.
1943 The population in the part of Ingria occupied by Germans was evacuated to Finland.
1944/45 – 55,773 Finns who were evacuated and return home are dispersed in the provinces in Central Russia.
1988 An organisations of Ingrian Finns was created in Leningrad, Carelia and Estonia. 1990 The president of Finland "invited" Ingrias to Finland as remingrants and untill now about 30 000 people have moved to Finland.
1993 The Ingrians were rehabilitated by the Russian government but they still did not receive the right to return to their homelands.
1995 Three homes for the elderly were opened, built by Inkeri Liitto with the help from Finnish government and social organisations. The first Finnish school was opened in St. Petersburg.
2002 The governement of Finland plans to restrict the remigration of Ingrians and give a precedence to those, who can speak Finnish.

Geographical Features:
Ingermanland or Ingria lies along the southern shore of the gulf of Finland and both banks of the river Neva. In the west it borders Estonia, in the south and in the east its borders run along the rivers Luga, Oredezh, Tosno, Mga and Lovat. Area: 15,000 km2.

Population:
The Ingrian Finns population is 90,000 of which most live in the St.Petersburg region.. Many also live in Carelia, in the central region of Russian, in Central Asia, in Finland and in Estonia, in Sweden, in Canada, in the USA and in Australia.

Languages:
Ingrian Finns belong to the Finno-Ugric peoples. Their literary language is the same as that of Suomi Finns, and is complemented with many local dialects. Until 1995 Finnish was not taught in local schools and the official language was Russian.

Organisations:
Ingrian Finns are represented in UNPO by Inkeri Liitto. Its purpose is to preserve Ingrian Finns as a people.

Economy:
Traditional forms of agriculture are partially preserved, although most Ingrian Finns now work at the industrial enterprises of St.Petersburg and the region.

Brief History:

17th century Ingria came under Swedish rule.
1702 Russian czar Peter the Great gained access to the Baltic Sea and a new capital St.Petersburg in Ingrea.
1920 Ingria was recognised as a part of Soviet Russia by the Peace Treaty of Tartu.
1929-1936 The majority of the Ingrian Finnish were deported to Siberia, Central Asia and the Kola Peninsula. The territory was resettled by newcomers from Russia.
1943 The population in the part of Ingria occupied by Germans was evacuated to Finland.
1988 An organisation of Ingrian Finns was created, called Inkeri Liitto.
1993 The Ingrians were rehabilitated by the Russian government but they still did not receive the right to return to their homelands.
1992 Inkeri Liitto joined UNPO.
1995 Three homes for the elderly were opened, built by Inkeri Liitto with the help from Finnish government and social organisations. The first Finnish school was opened in St. Petersburg.

Current situation:
Russian policy continues to violate the rights of the Ingrians. They are not recognised as an ethnic minority nor as an indigenous people. No decisions have been made by the local authorities concerning the national-cultural status of the Ingrians. There also has not been any improvement in the struggle for self-determination by the Ingrians. It is difficult to raise a strong voice against the Russian authorities.

[виталий]

Опссс, извиняйте, предупреждать надо, чуть не раздавили, город не там построили.... :shrug:
Бранник, ты конкретно, скажи - где Русским жить?
А то куда не сунешся, везде какая-нибудь ИНГРИЯ.
Неужели нам нет места на этой земле? В Киев , к тому-же теперь не пустят .

[Sa4mo]

Тук давам линк към книгата на един руски автор Исаев,гледната му точка за финската война е интересна поне според мен :http://militera.lib.ru/research/isaev_av2/02.html.А що се отнася до Южна Добруджа ,та тя си е исконно българска земя,дори повече от Македония(това сигурно звучи кощунствено в ушите на много хора),а дори и Северна Добруджа до 1940г.е имала изразен български характер на населението.По стечение на обстоятелствата познавам доста хора от сегашна Добруджа(Лудогорието),които са наследници на голяма група компактно българско население изселено от Северна Добруджа в Южна ,по същата Крайовска спогодба.Те са си чисти българи и езика им е по чист дори от този на молдавските българи.Между другото до Шуменското село Браничево все още има няколко румънски гранични знака обозначаващи къде е била граничната линия.Именно от тези българи са и двама от най известните български революционери-Стефан Караджа и Димитър Петков-бащата на Никола Петков и Петко Д.Петков.В Южна Добруджа е имало по време на румънската окупация организация за освобождение ,подобна на ВМРО,но това е според мен за друга тема ,която би била интересна,защото малко хора знаят за съпротивата на българите срещу румънската окупация.

[Бранник]

Опссс, извиняйте, предупреждать надо, чуть не раздавили, город не там построили.... :shrug:
Бранник, ты конкретно, скажи - где Русским жить?
А то куда не сунешся, везде какая-нибудь ИНГРИЯ.
Неужели нам нет места на этой земле? В Киев , к тому-же теперь не пустят .

някой може ли да преведе, не разбирам руски за съжаление...

[messire Woland]

Авиация. Руските войски започват с 2446 самолета, а към февруари '40 г. на фронта вече действат 3253 самолета. Общо от съветска страна действат 56 авиационни полка /39% от ВВС на РККА/. Освен по бойни цели, бомбардировки са осъществявани и върху цивилни обекти. Общо нападенията от такъв тип са 2075, върху 516 градове и села. Данни за всички цивилни жертви: 956 убити, 540 тежко ранени. Най-пострадал район: Нюландска губерния: бомбардирани 134 населени пункта, хвърлени 6860 бомби, жертви общо 11 738 души, от които убити - 640, тежко ранени - 538.
Загуби в самолети:
Финландия: 74 самолета /68 бойни загуби/, данни за броя убити пилоти не намерих.
СССР: между 750 и 760 самолета, като около 110 от тях са флотски (89 от КБФ и 21 от СФ). Сигурно установените загуби във въздушни боеве с финландците са 190 самолета. Загубите в пилоти са по-неясни. Минималното сигурно число е 895 души.
Общи загуби за СССР:
безвъзвратни:
убити: 126 875 души
възстановими:
ранени и обгорени: 188 671
с измръзвания: 17 867
болни: 58 370
общо ранени и болни: 264 908 души.

[виталий]

Бранник,
Если хочешь перевести с Русского на Английский, воспользуйся ссылкой-http://www.translate.ru/text.asp?lang=ru.
ПРЕВОДАЧ РУСКИ-АНГЛИЙСКИ- http://www.translate.ru/text.asp?lang=ru
Преведете, ако обичате...
Но лучше тебе не переводить.