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DREAM TEAM 1905

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    DREAM TEAM 1905

    Понеже Ройтер ме подкукороса по телефона откриваме нова тема с предположително достатъчно очевадно заглавие. Всеки да си избере флот и да си го направи. Аз по подразбиране ще съчиня флота на империята (а руснаците ако не са толкова загуени и си поръчат при мене вместо при жабарите и за тях). За да има достоверност се налагат следните ограничения: Без дредноутни изгъзици- тогава е нямало такива, втори калибър максимум 152 мм, задвижване: парни машини, ако се сетя нещо ще добавя.

    Setih се още едно ограничение: като гориво само въглища. А за да раздвижим темат ето едно корабче от мене: Броненосец втори клас за служба в колониите:

    Centaur, UK 2-th class BB laid down 1904

    Displacement:

    8 933 t light; 9 380 t standard; 10 312 t normal; 11 058 t full load

    Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught

    381.35 ft / 377.30 ft x 72.18 ft x 20.39 ft (normal load)

    116.23 m / 115.00 m x 22.00 m x 6.22 m

    Armament:

    4 - 10.00" / 254 mm guns (2x2 guns), 500.00lbs / 226.80kg shells, 1904 Model

    Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)

    on centreline ends, evenly spread

    14 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1904 Model

    Breech loading guns in casemate mounts

    on side, all amidships, 8 raised mounts - superfiring

    6 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas

    Weight of broadside 2 738 lbs / 1 242 kg

    Shells per gun, main battery: 150

    Armour:

    - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)

    Main: 7.87" / 200 mm 272.31 ft / 83.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m

    Ends: 1.97" / 50 mm 101.71 ft / 31.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m

    3.28 ft / 1.00 m Unarmoured ends

    Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 272.31 ft / 83.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m

    Main Belt covers 111 % of normal length

    - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)

    Main: 7.87" / 200 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 5.91" / 150 mm

    2nd: 3.94" / 100 mm - -

    - Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 7.87" / 200 mm

    Machinery:

    Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,

    Direct drive, 2 shafts, 18 251 ihp / 13 615 Kw = 20.00 kts

    Range 7 000nm at 10.00 kts

    Bunker at max displacement = 1 678 tons (100% coal)

    Complement:

    511 - 665

    Cost:

    £0.976 million / $3.904 million

    Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

    Armament: 342 tons, 3.3 %

    Armour: 2 717 tons, 26.4 %

    - Belts: 1 482 tons, 14.4 %

    - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %

    - Armament: 548 tons, 5.3 %

    - Armour Deck: 608 tons, 5.9 %

    - Conning Tower: 80 tons, 0.8 %

    Machinery: 2 684 tons, 26.0 %

    Hull, fittings & equipment: 3 189 tons, 30.9 %

    Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 380 tons, 13.4 %

    Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

    Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

    Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):

    10 021 lbs / 4 545 Kg = 20.0 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 1.5 torpedoes

    Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.36

    Metacentric height 5.3 ft / 1.6 m

    Roll period: 13.2 seconds

    Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %

    - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.28

    Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.53

    Hull form characteristics:

    Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak

    Block coefficient: 0.650

    Length to Beam Ratio: 5.23 : 1

    'Natural speed' for length: 19.42 kts

    Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %

    Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47

    Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees

    Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m

    Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):

    - Stem: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m

    - Forecastle (40 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m (16.40 ft / 5.00 m aft of break)

    - Mid (80 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m (16.40 ft / 5.00 m aft of break)

    - Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m

    - Stern: 16.40 ft / 5.00 m

    - Average freeboard: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m

    Ship space, strength and comments:

    Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 110.3 %

    - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 138.9 %

    Waterplane Area: 20 862 Square feet or 1 938 Square metres

    Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %

    Structure weight / hull surface area: 107 lbs/sq ft or 525 Kg/sq metre

    Hull strength (Relative):

    - Cross-sectional: 0.90

    - Longitudinal: 2.53

    - Overall: 1.00

    Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate

    Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

    Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

    Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
    Резюме:
    Примерен броненосец от втори клас
    По-късно през деня може да има ескадрен броненосец, два вида крайцери, миноноски и разна друга дребна сволоч.

    А и една подсказка като гледам проекта: 150 снаряда за главният калибър са твърде много за тогава.
    Това естаственно е примерен проект, истинският флот ще бъде предствен по-късно.

    Още нещо се сетих: предвид че трябва да са готови за войната от 1904-5 то корабите трябва да са заложени най-късно 1902 за основните класове, и 1903 за миноносците. Това го казвам да имате предвид като правите проектите и си избирате прототипи.
    Last edited by Gaden Gogi; 08-06-2005, 14:47. Причина: Автоматично сливане на двойно мнение

    #2
    Нека да го ограничим по слединя начин - забранява се калибър над 178мм - 203мм, 234мм, 254мм, 240мм.
    МДопустимо е калибри като френските 165мм и немските 170мм
    П.В.

    Comment


      #3
      Фопрмулирай го по-добре предложението

      Comment


        #4
        ето го основният клас броненосци на японски флот:
        Mikasa, Combined fleet pre-dreadnought laid down 1905

        Displacement:
        14*345 t light; 14*942 t standard; 16*802 t normal; 18*289 t full load

        Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
        485,56 ft / 475,72 ft x 72,18 ft x 29,53 ft (normal load)
        148,00 m / 145,00 m x 22,00 m x 9,00 m

        Armament:
        4 - 12,01" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 873,03lbs / 396,00kg shells, 1905 Model
        Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
        on centreline ends, evenly spread
        16 - 5,98" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 107,15lbs / 48,60kg shells, 1905 Model
        Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
        on side, all amidships
        20 - 2,99" / 76,0 mm guns in single mounts, 13,39lbs / 6,07kg shells, 1905 Model
        Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
        on side, evenly spread
        12 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns (10 mounts), 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1905 Model
        Breech loading guns in deck mounts
        on side, evenly spread
        Weight of broadside 5*493 lbs / 2*492 kg
        Shells per gun, main battery: 80
        10 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes, 6 - 17,7" / 450 mm submerged torpedo tubes

        Armour:
        - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
        Main: 9,02" / 229 mm 334,65 ft / 102,00 m 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
        Ends: 3,94" / 100 mm 141,08 ft / 43,00 m 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
        Upper: 5,98" / 152 mm 334,65 ft / 102,00 m 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
        Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length

        - Torpedo Bulkhead:
        1,97" / 50 mm 334,65 ft / 102,00 m 26,25 ft / 8,00 m

        - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
        Main: 9,84" / 250 mm 3,15" / 80 mm 9,84" / 250 mm
        2nd: 5,98" / 152 mm 3,15" / 80 mm 5,98" / 152 mm

        - Armour deck: 2,99" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 9,02" / 229 mm

        Machinery:
        Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
        Direct drive, 4 shafts, 14*277 ihp / 10*651 Kw = 18,00 kts
        Range 5*000nm at 14,00 kts (Bunkerage = 3*346 tons)

        Complement:
        737 - 959

        Cost:
        £1,365 million / $5,462 million

        Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
        Armament: 683 tons, 4,1 %
        Armour: 6*291 tons, 37,4 %
        - Belts: 3*090 tons, 18,4 %
        - Torpedo bulkhead: 640 tons, 3,8 %
        - Armament: 1*070 tons, 6,4 %
        - Armour Deck: 1*364 tons, 8,1 %
        - Conning Tower: 127 tons, 0,8 %
        Machinery: 2*069 tons, 12,3 %
        Hull, fittings & equipment: 5*002 tons, 29,8 %
        Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2*457 tons, 14,6 %
        Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1,8 %

        Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
        Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
        14*261 lbs / 6*469 Kg = 16,5 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 2,1 torpedoes
        Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
        Metacentric height 3,7 ft / 1,1 m
        Roll period: 15,8 seconds
        Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 97 %
        - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,80
        Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,95

        Hull form characteristics:
        Hull has low quarterdeck
        Block coefficient: 0,580
        Length to Beam Ratio: 6,59 : 1
        'Natural speed' for length: 21,81 kts
        Power going to wave formation at top speed: 41 %
        Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
        Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
        Stern overhang: 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
        Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
        - Stem: 26,25 ft / 8,00 m
        - Forecastle (20 %): 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
        - Mid (50 %): 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
        - Quarterdeck (15 %): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m (19,69 ft / 6,00 m before break)
        - Stern: 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
        - Average freeboard: 20,36 ft / 6,21 m

        Ship space, strength and comments:
        Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 107,1 %
        - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 111,6 %
        Waterplane Area: 24*647 Square feet or 2*290 Square metres
        Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
        Structure weight / hull surface area: 128 lbs/sq ft or 623 Kg/sq metre
        Hull strength (Relative):
        - Cross-sectional: 0,91
        - Longitudinal: 2,33
        - Overall: 1,00
        Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
        Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
        Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
        Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

        ами до 1905г. на френските, немските броненосци, айде изключваме4 американските, че те са имали 203мм оръдия - Орегон класа, а после и още един от типа кула над кула Вирджиния и Киарсадж, но във Франция Сюфрен е със 165мм втори калибър, Голуа, а те са строени в края на 19в. и началото на 20в.В Германия Дойчланд и Брауншвайг са с втори калибър 170мм.Айде Дойчландите влизат след 1905г., но Брауншвайг?

        ето моя броненосен крайцер, който ще участва в сраженията, като бързоходно крило:
        Idzumo, Combined fleet armoured cruiser laid down 1905

        Displacement:
        13*385 t light; 13*831 t standard; 15*538 t normal; 16*904 t full load

        Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
        469,16 ft / 459,32 ft x 65,62 ft x 32,81 ft (normal load)
        143,00 m / 140,00 m x 20,00 m x 10,00 m

        Armament:
        4 - 7,99" / 203 mm guns (2x2 guns), 255,24lbs / 115,77kg shells, 1905 Model
        Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
        on centreline ends, evenly spread
        14 - 5,98" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 107,15lbs / 48,60kg shells, 1905 Model
        Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
        on side, all amidships
        14 - 2,99" / 76,0 mm guns in single mounts, 13,39lbs / 6,07kg shells, 1905 Model
        Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
        on side, evenly spread
        12 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1905 Model
        Breech loading guns in deck mounts
        on side, evenly spread
        Weight of broadside 2*727 lbs / 1*237 kg
        Shells per gun, main battery: 80
        4 - 17,7" / 450 mm submerged torpedo tubes

        Armour:
        - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
        Main: 7,01" / 178 mm 426,51 ft / 130,00 m 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
        Ends: 3,15" / 80 mm 29,53 ft / 9,00 m 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
        3,28 ft / 1,00 m Unarmoured ends
        Upper: 5,98" / 152 mm 426,51 ft / 130,00 m 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
        Main Belt covers 143 % of normal length

        - Torpedo Bulkhead:
        1,57" / 40 mm 426,51 ft / 130,00 m 26,25 ft / 8,00 m

        - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
        Main: 7,01" / 178 mm 2,76" / 70 mm 7,01" / 178 mm
        2nd: 5,98" / 152 mm 2,76" / 70 mm 5,98" / 152 mm

        - Armour deck: 2,99" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 5,98" / 152 mm

        Machinery:
        Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
        Direct drive, 4 shafts, 23*507 ihp / 17*536 Kw = 20,80 kts
        Range 4*800nm at 14,00 kts (Bunkerage = 3*073 tons)

        Complement:
        695 - 904

        Cost:
        £1,232 million / $4,927 million

        Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
        Armament: 341 tons, 2,2 %
        Armour: 5*474 tons, 35,2 %
        - Belts: 2*944 tons, 18,9 %
        - Torpedo bulkhead: 652 tons, 4,2 %
        - Armament: 633 tons, 4,1 %
        - Armour Deck: 1*164 tons, 7,5 %
        - Conning Tower: 80 tons, 0,5 %
        Machinery: 3*407 tons, 21,9 %
        Hull, fittings & equipment: 3*863 tons, 24,9 %
        Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2*154 tons, 13,9 %
        Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1,9 %

        Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
        Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
        7*986 lbs / 3*622 Kg = 31,3 x 8,0 " / 203 mm shells or 1,3 torpedoes
        Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,13
        Metacentric height 3,3 ft / 1,0 m
        Roll period: 15,1 seconds
        Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 98 %
        - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,47
        Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,96

        Hull form characteristics:
        Hull has low quarterdeck
        Block coefficient: 0,550
        Length to Beam Ratio: 7,00 : 1
        'Natural speed' for length: 21,43 kts
        Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
        Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
        Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
        Stern overhang: 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
        Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
        - Stem: 26,25 ft / 8,00 m
        - Forecastle (20 %): 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
        - Mid (50 %): 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
        - Quarterdeck (15 %): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m (19,69 ft / 6,00 m before break)
        - Stern: 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
        - Average freeboard: 20,60 ft / 6,28 m

        Ship space, strength and comments:
        Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 135,9 %
        - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 117,8 %
        Waterplane Area: 21*034 Square feet or 1*954 Square metres
        Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
        Structure weight / hull surface area: 105 lbs/sq ft or 514 Kg/sq metre
        Hull strength (Relative):
        - Cross-sectional: 0,90
        - Longitudinal: 2,63
        - Overall: 1,00
        Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
        Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
        Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
        Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

        ето го и броненосният ми крайцер, предназанчен за далечно разузнаване и защита на интересите -висока скорост и по-слаба броня
        Nishin, Combined fleet armoured cruiser laid down 1905

        Displacement:
        10*433 t light; 10*781 t standard; 12*200 t normal; 13*336 t full load

        Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
        436,35 ft / 426,51 ft x 59,06 ft x 29,53 ft (normal load)
        133,00 m / 130,00 m x 18,00 m x 9,00 m

        Armament:
        2 - 7,99" / 203 mm guns in single mounts, 231,49lbs / 105,00kg shells, 1905 Model
        Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
        on centreline ends, evenly spread
        14 - 5,98" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 99,21lbs / 45,00kg shells, 1905 Model
        Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
        on side, all amidships
        12 - 2,99" / 76,0 mm guns in single mounts, 13,39lbs / 6,07kg shells, 1905 Model
        Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
        on side, evenly spread
        12 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1905 Model
        Breech loading guns in deck mounts
        on side, evenly spread
        Weight of broadside 2*031 lbs / 921 kg
        Shells per gun, main battery: 80
        4 - 17,7" / 450 mm submerged torpedo tubes

        Armour:
        - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
        Main: 5,12" / 130 mm 360,89 ft / 110,00 m 11,48 ft / 3,50 m
        Ends: 2,36" / 60 mm 59,06 ft / 18,00 m 11,48 ft / 3,50 m
        6,56 ft / 2,00 m Unarmoured ends
        Upper: 3,94" / 100 mm 360,89 ft / 110,00 m 11,48 ft / 3,50 m
        Main Belt covers 130 % of normal length
        Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

        - Torpedo Bulkhead:
        1,57" / 40 mm 360,89 ft / 110,00 m 25,10 ft / 7,65 m

        - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
        Main: 5,98" / 152 mm 2,36" / 60 mm 5,98" / 152 mm
        2nd: 3,94" / 100 mm 2,76" / 70 mm 3,15" / 80 mm

        - Armour deck: 1,85" / 47 mm, Conning tower: 5,00" / 127 mm

        Machinery:
        Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
        Direct drive, 4 shafts, 26*001 ihp / 19*397 Kw = 22,00 kts
        Range 5*500nm at 13,00 kts (Bunkerage = 2*555 tons)

        Complement:
        579 - 754

        Cost:
        £1,123 million / $4,491 million

        Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
        Armament: 274 tons, 2,2 %
        Armour: 3*149 tons, 25,8 %
        - Belts: 1*592 tons, 13,1 %
        - Torpedo bulkhead: 528 tons, 4,3 %
        - Armament: 356 tons, 2,9 %
        - Armour Deck: 616 tons, 5,0 %
        - Conning Tower: 57 tons, 0,5 %
        Machinery: 3*768 tons, 30,9 %
        Hull, fittings & equipment: 2*992 tons, 24,5 %
        Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1*767 tons, 14,5 %
        Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 2,0 %

        Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
        Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
        3*423 lbs / 1*553 Kg = 13,4 x 8,0 " / 203 mm shells or 0,7 torpedoes
        Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,25
        Metacentric height 3,4 ft / 1,0 m
        Roll period: 13,5 seconds
        Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 85 %
        - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,37
        Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,71

        Hull form characteristics:
        Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak
        Block coefficient: 0,574
        Length to Beam Ratio: 7,22 : 1
        'Natural speed' for length: 20,65 kts
        Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
        Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
        Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
        Stern overhang: 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
        Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
        - Stem: 24,61 ft / 7,50 m
        - Forecastle (18 %): 22,97 ft / 7,00 m (21,33 ft / 6,50 m aft of break)
        - Mid (50 %): 21,33 ft / 6,50 m (18,04 ft / 5,50 m aft of break)
        - Quarterdeck (18 %): 18,04 ft / 5,50 m
        - Stern: 18,04 ft / 5,50 m
        - Average freeboard: 20,09 ft / 6,12 m

        Ship space, strength and comments:
        Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 190,8 %
        - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 116,4 %
        Waterplane Area: 17*981 Square feet or 1*670 Square metres
        Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 93 %
        Structure weight / hull surface area: 94 lbs/sq ft or 459 Kg/sq metre
        Hull strength (Relative):
        - Cross-sectional: 0,90
        - Longitudinal: 2,65
        - Overall: 1,00
        Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
        Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
        Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
        Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
        Last edited by De Ruyeter; 08-06-2005, 13:51. Причина: Автоматично сливане на двойно мнение
        П.В.

        Comment


          #5
          Замечатки:
          1. Съгласно правил;ата на форума трябва да сложиш резюме на български.
          2. Тия кораби както си ги заложил '05 кога смяташ че ще влезнат в строя? Съвсем ясно и обосновано бях посочил кога трябва да са заложени най-късно
          3. Този броненосец не ти ли се струма малко тесничък? togawa sa със съотношение 1:5,5 а твоето е с 1:6,5

          Comment


            #6
            ОК, ще пиша вече 1903-04г.Броненосците от това време са били с ширина 22-23м.Руските са дълги по 115-118м, а японските по 130-135м.
            След концепцията ще ми бъде като на японците - стабилно ядро от броненосци тип "Миказа" и бързоходни крилаот броненосни крайцери "Идзумо", които със своята скорост и броня могат да се сражават в една линия с броненосците.По-малките броненосци тип "Нишин ще служат за защита на търговското мореплаване от досадници като "Рюрик, Росия и Громобой
            П.В.

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              #7
              Ей все едно на стената говоря, като го заложиш '03-'04 кога ще влесна в строя? И изобщо прочете ли първият пост по темата? Не че тебе не съм те хванал че най-редовно го пропускаш. ама твоя си работа прави си каквото искаш.

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                #8
                идеята ми е да бъде готов към 1903 -1904
                П.В.

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