Defeats of the Bulgarian army

[dibo]

Bulgaria lost the Second Balkan War, but its forces were never defeated in major battle

Then how we did lost the war, if we were so invincible? :o
This is a widely cited myth among the Bulgarians, that our army has never lost a battle.

The quick Bulgarian victories in Serbia and Romania led to the capture of lots of enemy eqipment, including artillery. Therefore the Bulgarian army could have been better equipped in the later stages of the war when it was able to hold off the allies and inflict heavy casualties to them.

The problem is that the Bulgarian army did not hold them in the end at Dobro pole in 1918. It is true that in 1915-1918 the Bulgarian army provided the bulk of the manpower on the Salonica front, and in 1918 it was in many aspects better equiped than in 1915 (although not on par with the Entente forces), but the other Central powers also provided much of the sorely needed heavy artillery and MG units, airpower, etc at the Salonica front. But although it is relatively well known what was the inventory of the Bulgarian army in 1915, so far I have not been able to locate much info on what was available as quantities of military hardware throughout the years up to 1918.

[TVV]

Dibo, I was referring to the two the Balkan War. I think the reasons for losing this war are well known, and it was through no fault of our army. I do not consider the border skirmishes that occured during the surprise attack of the Romania army a major battle.
As far as myths go, there has not been a Bulgarian military unit in history, which has lost more than 70% of its strength, and a Bulgarian flag captured. Overall, these two things (being diminished under 30% of your strength and/or having a flag captured) are considered a technical loss in a battle. From this point of view, technically at least, our army since 1878 has not lost a battle. Prove me wrong.

[dibo]

Dibo, I was referring to the two the Balkan War. I think the reasons for losing this war are well known, and it was through no fault of our army. I do not consider the border skirmishes that occured during the surprise attack of the Romania army a major battle.
As far as myths go, there has not been a Bulgarian military unit in history, which has lost more than 70% of its strength, and a Bulgarian flag captured. Overall, these two things (being diminished under 30% of your strength and/or having a flag captured) are considered a technical loss in a battle. From this point of view, technically at least, our army since 1878 has not lost a battle. Prove me wrong.

Unfortunately victories and defeats are not measured in percentage losses of strength or captured flags. This is not a wargame. With this type of measuring you could easily say that Bulgaria has not lost a war since 1878, because for example no enemy troops had entered its capital Sofia since 1878.

Anyway if you speak of Bulgarian defeats since 1878:

Kula 1885
Breznik 1885
Kukush (i.e. Kilkis) 06.1913
Yarebichina 1918
Dobro pole 1918
Macedonia and Serbia 09.1944

There are more, but the topic needs researching...

[TVV]

When trying to determine whether a battle was a defeat or a victory, you need to apply certain criteria, and I have mentioned the two criteria most commonly used. Who won at Borodino? The Russians withdrew, but were they defeated? Very few people will count this as one of Napoleon's victories. Since at situations such as this one it is extremely subjective to rule a battle as a victory or defeat for either army, we need to resort to some formal, technical definition of what is a victory, that would be victory in all cases.

[dibo]

Then how do you define the debacle at attacking the Chataldja line in 11.1912 for example? We did not lost a flag, nor 70% of our strength...

[TVV]

For one thing I do not count it as a victory, since our army could not break through the enemy's lines. I am not quite sure whether our discussion in English here is of any interest to our Italian friend. There was a topic in Bulgarian somewhere in the other forums on the issue, and the general consensus was that technically, since 1878 our army has not lost a major battle.

[MCP]

In Germay too after WW1 peoples adasserted that German Army was not defeated, since the ennemy could not break through the lines and invade Germany.
As for Bulgaria Army, I’m not an expert like you, but I think that it is impossible to deny that Bitolj - 1916 and Dobropole - 1918 were defeats for Bulgarian Army.
But I noticed an interesting fact reading your debate about the condition of a military defeat. General Cadorna, chief of Italian Army during WW1, very often change the Armies, Corps and Divisions commanders. I think this means that I found them inadequate and usually these commanders were changes when a battle was lost (or at least not won). There are units that had more than ten commander during the war. Italy and Bulgaria fought during more or less the same time, since Italy entered in WW1 on May 24, 1915. But I noticed that Bulgarian Division had only two or three commander during the war and five Division (out of 16) had the same commander during the whole war.
This may mean that Bulgarian Army did not suffer great defeat during WW1. I think it is not by accident that many commanders (first of them Kliment Bojadžiev) were changed in September 1916 during Allied offensive against Bitolj.
BTW another strange thing is that some Bulgarian generals were trasferred from an Army to another. Usually a general was sent to an higher position or was dismissed.

[Дар]

Bulgarian Army has NEVER lost a battle!The reason why we "lost " the balkan wars is because the western powers were supporting the tyran Muslim Ottoman Empire,instead of supporting Bulgaria-a Christian nation with democratic aspirations.
Just one example:we took what was inhabited by ethnic Bulgaria-the European part of Turkey,reaching Constantinople,but the "great" powers gave back our territory to those who lost the battle.SO,the battle didn't make any difference to the west,who have always support Muslim Turkey against Christian Bulgaria.

[TVV]

Bulgarian Army has NEVER lost a battle!The reason why we "lost " the balkan wars is because the western powers were supporting the tyran Muslim Ottoman Empire,instead of supporting Bulgaria-a Christian nation with democratic aspirations.
Just one example:we took what was inhabited by ethnic Bulgaria-the European part of Turkey,reaching Constantinople,but the "great" powers gave back our territory to those who lost the battle.SO,the battle didn't make any difference to the west,who have always support Muslim Turkey against Christian Bulgaria.

I think you go a bit too far in stating the reasons for our defeat in the Balkan wars and the susequent WWI. I do not agree at all, and find a statement like that rather simplistic. Yes, the the Great Powers certainly approved of Serbian and Turkish treaty violations during the Balkan War and most deffinitey encouraged the injustices that ensued, but this is what Great Powers did. I do not see any religous reason for them to do so, though, just complicated geopolitical interests.
In WWI we ourselves signed a treaty with the Ottoman Empire, acknowledging the territories they were able to regain during the late stages of the Balkan War. And this just proves that instead of only blaming the Great Powers and our treachorous allies and neighbors, we are much more to blame our own diplomats, for they were the ones who lost the wars, and not our brave soldiers, who technically did not lose a major battle.

[gollum]

Yes, I agree with you, TVV (and excuse me for my bad english). In fact Bulgaria did lose a wars (and in that meaning - battles) - on strategic level Second Balkan war and Great war end with military defeat for Bulgria. On tactical level our army rarely lose a battle, but on operational and on strategic levels defeat is something that is hapened more often.

[dibo]

Jarebichna 30.05.1918 - after 2 days of intensive bombardment Greek troops with surprise assault destroyed the entire 49-th Bulgarian infantry regiment at the Jarebichna and Huma mountains. More than 2000 Bulgarians were killed or captured (1700 captured). Only with intensive counterattacks did the neighbouring Bulgarian units managed to hold the front line from falling apart.

[MCP]

I think that, if we could not deny that Bulgarian Army was defeated at least at Dobropole, we must admit that the first cause of Bulgarian defeats in Balkan War and WW1 was not military.
I think that Bulgarian diplomats made some mistakes, but I think also that the first responsable for Bulgarian defeats was Russia. Austria-Hungary was interested in breaking the Balcan Quadruplice, but Russia must made every effort to save it in order to use it as its point of reference in Balkan. If Russia had arbitrated in the disputate about Macedonia (as promised to Geshov), Bulgaria would not attack Serbia in 1913. Consequently Bulgaria would remain an ally of Russia and WW1 would be very different. With a pro-russian Bulgarian Army along Enos-Midia line, Turkey would never declare war to Russia, Dardanelles would not be close and so on.
Having lost the Balkan Wars, I think that Bulgaria could not have a different policy in 1914-15. Radoslavov negotiated both with Germany and Allies, but Serbia did not accept to cede anything to Bulgaria. Since the Allies were not able (or did not want) to force Serbia to make any concession, Bulgaria could only ally with Germany. If Germany was a sincere ally for Bulgaria, is another problem.

[Дар]

"I do not see any religous reason for them to do so, though, just complicated geopolitical interests".

The Great Powers ignored the religious closeness of Bulgaria and the rest of Europe.About our unprofessional diplomats...yes,I agree,they're to blame,too.